E 85 Gas

[longbow]

What you going to do if all that is left is E85 gas?

Right now, one of my cars is almost 100% E85. How can we tell if the gas we just got is E85 in a survival situation.

 

[Clay]

If E85 is all you have, its all you have. Be sure to have a duel fuel vehicle and it wont matter.

Personally, E85 is a waste of money. It requires about 20% more volume of fuel to run at stoich, and that right there negates any savings you get (at least here in town comparing E85 prices to 87 octane). E85 also gets less MPG than standard gasoline.

but, its is great for turbo cars and drag racing

 

[E5RANGER375]

i can run it. but if SHTF, people in cities wont be driving around in cars. thats a fantasy.

 

[sj kahr k40]

I can't run it but my neighbor can, and he is an anti.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Neither of our personal vehicles can take it...

But just about everything we have at work can. (Two Chrysler min-vans and two Chevy 'burbs) Every 4 months or so we're harped at that we really should be buying E85 for the vehicles when we can... "We need to be environmentally friendly" and all that crap.

Well, considering that my employer gets a rather large amount of taxpayer money, personally, I'd rather buy the least expensive fuel for the vehicles that I can. And that ain't E85.

-J-

 

[fireball168]

How can we tell if the gas we just got is E85 in a survival situation.

I carry these with me, and hand them out in the dealerships regularly.

They are cheap, accurate enough for what we care about - and virtually unbreakable in regular usage.

You need just a little bit of the fuel in question, and a bit of water - shake it up - watch it seperate and read the alcohol percentage.

Larger Briggs & Stratton repair centers typically have them in stock, or order online.

They recently changed the part number from 100023 to 795161, retail is $7.50.

They call it a "Gasohol Tester".

Nothing more than a graduated test tube with a screw on lid.

Buy Repair Parts - Briggs & Stratton

 

[homeless]

E-85 conversion is actually really easy. For the same amount of power that you will get from a gas engine you will use roughly 30% more ethanol. If you want to do a straight conversion then you just make sure that you have newer modern lines that wont degrade. and then change the pump and injectors to roughly 130% the size of stock.

If you want to turn your car into a duel fuel vehicle then build a megasquirt ecu, redo the fuel system and install a GM tank sensor, so that the ecu knows what maps to run based on the percentage of ethanol. When you are fine tuning the fuel maps remember that ethanol is a different 02 scale than gas.


Ethanol is the cheapest race gas that I have ever found, except that part where I run through it like water.






Now who wants to talk about bio and grease conversions?

 

[Tactical Dave]

If E85 is all you have, its all you have. Be sure to have a duel fuel vehicle and it wont matter.

Personally, E85 is a waste of money. It requires about 20% more volume of fuel to run at stoich, and that right there negates any savings you get (at least here in town comparing E85 prices to 87 octane). E85 also gets less MPG than standard gasoline.

but, its is great for turbo cars and drag racing

What he said. It is good for drag racing but the only problem is that you pretty much have to buy it by the drum to get a consistant octane rating.


But like Ranger said if things really hit the fan people will not be driving or cars will not be driveable........ or at the very least you will turn into a huge target.

 

[fireball168]

E-85 conversion is actually really easy.

If you want to do a straight conversion then you just make sure that you have newer modern lines that wont degrade. and then change the pump and injectors to roughly 130% the size of stock.

While this may have worked on something in the past for you, making a blanket statement such as this for all the products on the road is a joke(at best).

 

[CountryBoy19]

E-85 conversion is actually really easy. For the same amount of power that you will get from a gas engine you will use roughly 30% more ethanol. If you want to do a straight conversion then you just make sure that you have newer modern lines that wont degrade. and then change the pump and injectors to roughly 130% the size of stock.

If you want to turn your car into a duel fuel vehicle then build a megasquirt ecu, redo the fuel system and install a GM tank sensor, so that the ecu knows what maps to run based on the percentage of ethanol. When you are fine tuning the fuel maps remember that ethanol is a different 02 scale than gas.


Ethanol is the cheapest race gas that I have ever found, except that part where I run through it like water.






Now who wants to talk about bio and grease conversions?

Did I used to work with you in college? Everything you just mentioned sounds like my research job in college and you sound exactly like my "co-worker".


On the topic... most modern vehicles have fuel systems equipped to handle ethanol because most gas contains 10% ethanol.

Running E85 doesn't change anything other than the fact that you need to put more gas in to obtain the correct air to fuel ratio. Your O2 sensor will automatically adjust your EFI system to inject more fuel if/when you run E85. The only problem is that if you floor it (wide-open throttle) your injectors will hit their limits and won't be able to inject enough fuel, which will likely cause your engine to lean out, and depending on the load you're under it could cause lots of damage.

The lesson? You can run E85 in a modern vehicle with zero modifications as long as you drive easy.

I can even attest to this fact. I worked 2 years of bio-fuels research in college, and I took all of the "waste gas" which was really just the remainder of a test gas that we were no longer testing. I typically mixed that gas in my car at no more than 25% not only because it was ethanol (started out at pure ETOH), but because it most often had additives in it that I didn't want to run through in high percentages. I typically had 2 5-gallon cans of it in my trunk, one day I ran out of gas (got stupid and hoping I could make it to the next known cheap gas-station). At first I wasn't sure what to do, but I decided that it would be worth a try to put some of that waste fuel in to make it to the next gas station. I put a couple gallon in and my car ran perfectly fine on the way to the next station. My car is a 2000 Buick.

So in a pinch, E85 will work just fine so come SHTF, who cares? If that is all you have then use it.

 

[fireball168]

You can run E85 in a modern vehicle with zero modifications as long as you drive easy.

I'm draining E-85 out of a half a dozen vehicles a month for lean codes, misfires and damaged catalysts, injectors and fuel pumps.

Even more when the gas prices jump.


Your 2000 Buick, and every other OBDII vehicle out there that I know of, uses a two trip detection cycle for prior to turning on the MIL for a lean code.

Driving to a gas station on E-85 and filling up with fuel proves nothing, as you may not have even drove it far enough to hit the adaptive limit to set a pending code(non MIL enabled), the MIL wouldn't illuminate until the fault occured again on the next drive cycle.

 

[CountryBoy19]

I'm draining E-85 out of a half a dozen vehicles a month for lean codes, misfires and damaged catalysts, injectors and fuel pumps.

Even more when the gas prices jump.


Your 2000 Buick, and every other OBDII vehicle out there that I know of, uses a two trip detection cycle for prior to turning on the MIL for a lean code.

Driving to a gas station on E-85 and filling up with fuel proves nothing, as you may not have even drove it far enough to hit the adaptive limit to set a pending code(non MIL enabled), the MIL wouldn't illuminate until the fault occured again on the next drive cycle.

I'm not saying that it won't set off a code, I am saying that it will run on it. So you're having 6 vehicle a month come in with damage to the point that they're no longer drivable? I find that hard to believe, but if you say so I won't argue.

My point was, in a SHTF scenario in which you only have E85 available to you, you're left with 2 options. Don't drive anywhere, or drive somewhere and risk "potential damage" that would disable your vehicle, in which case you're back to the first option of don't drive. So IMHO, in a long-term SHTF, you have nothing to lose by doing it, the vehicle should run just fine on E85 and it will get you where you need to go if you really need to be there badly.

 

[Tactical Dave]

Or get smart and get something that does not have a gas engine and that will run on anything that will burn..................... that should be pretty easy to figure out.

Im a genius.............

 

[fireball168]

So you're having 6 vehicle a month come in with damage to the point that they're no longer drivable?

Perhaps our definition of "drivable" might be different.

Misfires, restricted or totally plugged catalysts usually don't give one a warm fuzzy of making it to their destination.

So IMHO, in a long-term SHTF, you have nothing to lose by doing it, the vehicle should run just fine on E85 and it will get you where you need to go if you really need to be there badly.

No offense, but IMHO, all I've seen of your opinion thus far is that you drove to a gas station on a couple of gallons of monkey spunk, then diluted it by filling the tank and continued about your day.

If you've got more - please share it, otherwise that's a pretty weak data point.


There are a few fellows I work with that have been running a blend of E-85, monitoring fuel trims, checking the resistance and amperage of the injectors/fuel pump over time and plotting inferred catalyst temperatures with regular oil tests. I've got a good bit of the data, but it isn't any usable format to share at this point.


I've been running straight/blended E-85 (gotta do something with the stuff we drain out) in carbureted small engines, light to medium duty tractors and industrial engines - provided I can adjust the ignition timing and/or fuel mixture. One of these days I'll do a write up on the results, although it is rather dull and uneventful.

 

[CountryBoy19]

Perhaps our definition of "drivable" might be different.

Misfires, restricted or totally plugged catalysts usually don't give one a warm fuzzy of making it to their destination.

How long did does it take to get a plugged cat? It's not like the problem would just all of the sudden surface and you'd be screwed. In SHTF you would most likely be able to remove the cat if it really posed those sorts of problems. Misfires... what is causing them? What model year vehicle? I doubt there are that many misfire problems in newer vehicles that have good injectors in them. If it's misfiring its going to misfire no matter what, there is a bad component somewhere in the system and you can't necessarily say that the E85 caused it.

No offense, but IMHO, all I've seen of your opinion thus far is that you drove to a gas station on a couple of gallons of monkey spunk, then diluted it by filling the tank and continued about your day.

If you've got more - please share it, otherwise that's a pretty weak data point.

Maybe you missed the part where I said I did biofuels research for 2 years in college. We ran this stuff in a junker test engine from the 80's for 2 years. The worst we ever had to do was replace spark plugs because of some of the nasty crap we ran through it. I also ran all the waste gas through my car in a blend of about 25% but occasionally higher percentage for the better part of 2 years. My cat wasn't plugged then and isn't plugged now and performance didn't increase or decrease during/after running it.

I still can't see E85 causing a big performance issue immediately. In a long-term SHTF if the only thing left is E85, it's not going to be left for long, and your vehicle isn't going to quit running on it before it runs out. So I'm sticking to my opinion that it's better than nothing. If, and that's a BIG if, there is any damage to the vehicle it isn't going to matter anyways because E85 is going to run well enough to get you where you need to go. If you're trying to go across country and the fuel supply is already dried up except E85, well, you're screwed no matter what you do (unless you have a bike) so that takes us back to the point that you have nothing to lose.

 

[fireball168]

How long did does it take to get a plugged cat?

Most people can't tell you that last place they filled up, let alone if or when they used the wrong pump.

It isn't uncommon to see the fuel gauge still pegged on full when they come in on the hook or with the engine shaking like a dog ****ting razorblades.

Misfires? They're lean, they don't have any fuel pressure, the injector winding insulation is ate up. You pick.

Late model vehicles, most built within the last 10 years. None certified for E-85 use.

Maybe you missed the part where I said I did biofuels research for 2 years in college.

Damn.

I've only got four years of automotive related college with fuels & lube classes, 20 years in manufacturer field engineering and technical support, two independent fuel/lube testing firms as well as the Indiana Department of Weights and Measures on speed dial for these and other fuel related issues that I deal with on a weekly basis.

I still can't see E85 causing a big performance issue immediately.

No problem, as previously stated, I see it several times a month.

Experiences vary.

 

[CountryBoy19]

Most people can't tell you that last place they filled up, let alone if or when they used the wrong pump.

It isn't uncommon to see the fuel gauge still pegged on full when they come in on the hook or with the engine shaking like a dog ****ting razorblades.

Misfires? They're lean, they don't have any fuel pressure, the injector winding insulation is ate up. You pick.

Late model vehicles, most built within the last 10 years. None certified for E-85 use.

That was my point, they've likely been running E85 far longer than they can even think back to and the problem has just surfaced.

Most of my experience happened in a controlled lab, and we can tell you how much fuel we ran and what problems we saw and what happened to performance etc. The remainder of my experience was outside of a lab (personal vehicle) but I know what I put in my car and I know how much I ran and what my problems were etc.

I would be interested in seeing all the data on the cars that have had problems with it. I wonder if certain manufacturers have more problems than others etc.

Damn.

I've only got four years of automotive related college with fuels & lube classes, 20 years in manufacturer field engineering and technical support, two independent fuel/lube testing firms as well as the Indiana Department of Weights and Measures on speed dial for these and other fuel related issues that I deal with on a weekly basis.

You're the one that asked me to share it so don't come back with a smartass comment.


I'm not doubting your experience, just stating mine, and my position is that if its SHTF, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do, and putting E85 in vehicle not really intended for it will likely get done what he wants to get done.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

If I had a choice (and right now I don't) I'd get some sort of diesel engine. They won't run on gasoline very well, but I knew a guy who used to fill his tank up with jet-fuel discards (when you work for a company with 27 helicopters, there's a lot of fuel samples discarded every day) and it worked very well for him. Of course, he was a modification-junkie and he had a dual-filtration system installed on his truck that I didn't see again in use for 20 years...and then it was on a bus. Another good thing about diesel, once you get it going, you don't have to worry about an electrical system shutting it down - if SHTF.

 

[patton487]

I'll say one thing, there's never been any ethanol spewing into the gulf, or washing up on any beaches. I say bring on the ethanol!!!! At least it is made here in America!!

 

[Zoub]

Maybe you missed the part where I said I did biofuels research for 2 years in college.

I still can't see E85 causing a big performance issue immediately.

I know a guy who did it in college too and now for 20 years as a Pro. He has spent more money then we can imagine just to test gas on the dynos and in the field so he can know what it does in their engines.

His findings..........E85 is crap.

Simply put water does damage to engines. It does more damage quicker than you think. Not stomping on anyone here, just sharing what this guy knows and I have known him for 40 years. He is in the marine industry so the combo of fuel, water and engines are his "thing." He is known internationally for his expertise on this matter and as a fellow prepper he would tell you E85 is crap.

On a side note, his Dynos and fuel farm would give you guys a major boner.