Do we give up our constitutional rights when we buy a hunting license?

[jwglock]

How in God's name is this Constitutional? They cannot just come on my property and snoop around just for the hell of it.




Especially the highlighted part. What I do on my own property is my business. I understand that game that wonders onto my land is not mine. That would be like saying any person that walks on my land is mine. So I get that part.

What I don't get is how some guy with a badge has the right to come on my property that I own and just start searching around through my stuff, my car, my home, my garage just because he THINKS I might be violating some law.

This is not right. I would rather die than let anyone have free reign over my own property.

My point from the beginning. Unless I am doing something illegal, leave me and my rights the **** alone!!!!

If any LEO/CO etc. has reason to believe I am breaking the law, GET A SEARCH WARRANT!

 

[longbarrel]

Thanks for the posts everyone.

Do COs indeed have additional search powers?

IC 14-9-8-16
Powers and duties of conservation officers
Sec. 16. (a) A conservation officer of the division:
(1) has all necessary police powers to enforce the natural resources laws; and
(2) may, without warrant, arrest a person for a violation of those laws when committed in the officer's presence.
(b) A conservation officer shall do the following:
(1) Detect and prevent violations of natural resources laws.
(2) Enforce natural resources laws and rules.
(3) Perform other related duties that are imposed upon conservation officers by law.
(c) A conservation officer has the same power with respect to natural resources matters and the enforcement of the laws relating to natural resources laws as have law enforcement officers in their respective jurisdictions. A warrant of arrest or search warrant issued by proper authority may be executed by a conservation officer in any county.

They carry open search warrants. That is why police departments will have a CO with them sometimes serving a warrant. If they cannot get a judge up or located then they can have a co come along and still serve the warrant. At least that is what my IMPD buddy tells me.

 

[jwglock]

They carry open search warrants


I think the Nazi's did too.

 

[LCPer]

I am not certain of this but I have always been told that a CO is considered a Deputy U,S, Marshal and has all the powers thereof. I believe a CO is the only LEO employed by the state that has the power to arrest the Governor. Like I stated Not sure about this but it is what I have always been told.

 

[SavageEagle]

They carry open search warrants


I think the Nazi's did too.

Exactly. Maybe since CO's can just stroll onto anyone's property and search around, maybe I should be able to do the same. I mean, I can use Citizen's Arrest, so I should be able to search a "suspicious" property too. So should the FBI, the ATF, the ISP, local police, etc, etc, etc...

 

[SavageEagle]

I am not certain of this but I have always been told that a CO is considered a Deputy U,S, Marshal and has all the powers thereof. I believe a CO is the only LEO employed by the state that has the power to arrest the Governor. Like I stated Not sure about this but it is what I have always been told.

I've also been told that CO's can take your house away because of a simple ticket....

 

[Al B]

I am not certain of this but I have always been told that a CO is considered a Deputy U,S, Marshal and has all the powers thereof. I believe a CO is the only LEO employed by the state that has the power to arrest the Governor. Like I stated Not sure about this but it is what I have always been told.

Stop and let this soak in.....only LEO that can arrest an office holder....
We have allowed people to place themselves above the law. Think about all the instances that are similar or just like this. When the "lawmakers" write laws that shield themselves, give themselves health care, and generally do as they wish, we ALL have a problem.

 

[Dashman010]

IC 14-22-39-3
Searches of effects; entry onto property
Sec. 3. (a) As used in this section, "public or private property" does not include dwellings.
(b) The director and conservation officers may:
(1) search a boat, a conveyance, a vehicle, an automobile, a fish box, a fish basket, a game bag, a game coat, or other receptacle in which game may be carried; and
(2) enter into or upon private or public property for the purposes of subdivision (1) or for the purpose of patrolling or investigating;
if the director or conservation officer has good reason to believe that the director or conservation officer will secure evidence of a violation of this article or a law for the propagation or protection of fish, frogs, mussels, game, furbearing mammals, or birds.
As added by P.L.1-1995, SEC.15.

I think a challenge to this law on 4th Amendment grounds would probably succeed. Conservation Officer's are "state actors" within the meaning of the 4th Amendment, and as such, are subject to the Constitution. Accordingly, they need a search warrant to "search" your "boat, a conveyance, a vehicle, an automobile, a fish box, a fish basket, a game bag, a game coat, or other receptacle in which game may be carried" unless they have probable cause and there is some exigent circumstance. "Good reason to believe" evidence will be secured doesn't initially sound the same as probable cause, and even if it was, there would have to be some exigent circumstances (i.e. car could flee, destruction of evidence) to justify not getting a warrant.

However, standard LEO's and CO's alike can walk on your property and are not subject, generally, to trespass laws. Your property, as far as the law is concerned, is an "open field," and thus when an LEO/CO comes on your property, it is not considered a "search" within the meaning of the 4th Amendment and therefore elicits no 4th Amendment concerns.

But, as a matter of law, CO's don't get any special powers to usurp the Constitution.

Disclaimer: This is my opinion on the law, and not legal advice. IANAL.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

What I don't get is how some guy with a badge has the right to come on my property that I own and just start searching around through my stuff, my car, my home, my garage just because he THINKS I might be violating some law.

Your home is not included,

IC 14-22-39-3
Searches of effects; entry onto property
Sec. 3. (a) As used in this section, "public or private property" does not include dwellings.

Although I agree with you that they have the power to perform searches of yourself, property, vehicles, sheds etc. for just suspicion is BS. Don't other LEOs have to have probable cause to perform a search of a person or vehicle(other than a Terry pat down)? And require a warrant (usually) for your property?

They carry open search warrants. That is why police departments will have a CO with them sometimes serving a warrant. If they cannot get a judge up or located then they can have a co come along and still serve the warrant. At least that is what my IMPD buddy tells me.

Not sure how that would work, according to code they have to follow the same procedure as any other LEO for getting warrants. Can other forms of law enforcement carry open warrants? Also they seem to be limited slightly for what they can be issued a search warrant for. Although just about any implement or device can be used or kept for taking wild animals illegally.

IC 14-22-39-4
Search warrants; issuance
Sec. 4. (a) A court may issue a warrant to search a house or place for the following:
(1) Seines, fishnets, fish traps, fish-spears, or any implement or device used or kept for use for taking wild animals illegally.
(2) Wild animals or parts of wild animals whose possession is unlawful.
(b) Search warrants, affidavits for search warrants, and all procedure concerning search warrants must be in the form and substance provided by law for search warrants and issuance of search warrants in other cases.

 

[Dashman010]

Originally Posted by longbarrel
They carry open search warrants. That is why police departments will have a CO with them sometimes serving a warrant. If they cannot get a judge up or located then they can have a co come along and still serve the warrant. At least that is what my IMPD buddy tells me.

This is just flatly wrong. Period. A search warrant requires judicial oversight and approval.

 

[SavageEagle]

Your home is not included

But once they enter your land and find the SMALLEST violation, they will obtain a reason to enter your home. Warrant or not. That's where it really gets messy. Especially since 9/11, LE has rarely needed a search warrant. All they need is to SUSPECT you of doing something wrong and will pull you out of your car and search you. If you refuse and tell them to get a warrant, you'll be arrested for resisting arrest and will most likely lose in court. I've see this happen to a few friends and a couple of them even had good lawyers.

And no, they weren't doing ANYTHING wrong in the first place.

As far as I'm concerned, it's all BS gestapo tactics and someone needs to put an end to it.

What's funny, as soon as HT published the geographical database of gun owners the community got into a frenzy and did something about it. However, something like this no one will care about or do anything about because it either "doesn't effect them" or will think I'm "cop bashing" by saying what I said. How sad is that?

 

[dross]

But once they enter your land and find the SMALLEST violation, they will obtain a reason to enter your home. Warrant or not. That's where it really gets messy. Especially since 9/11, LE has rarely needed a search warrant. All they need is to SUSPECT you of doing something wrong and will pull you out of your car and search you. If you refuse and tell them to get a warrant, you'll be arrested for resisting arrest and will most likely lose in court. I've see this happen to a few friends and a couple of them even had good lawyers.

And no, they weren't doing ANYTHING wrong in the first place.

As far as I'm concerned, it's all BS gestapo tactics and someone needs to put an end to it.

What's funny, as soon as HT published the geographical database of gun owners the community got into a frenzy and did something about it. However, something like this no one will care about or do anything about because it either "doesn't effect them" or will think I'm "cop bashing" by saying what I said. How sad is that?

Details, please. Nothing about 911 or changed the things you are suggesting. Are you saying LEOs are more inclined to ignore the law, or are you suggesting the law has changed?

 

[Denny347]

Details, please. Nothing about 911 or changed the things you are suggesting. Are you saying LEOs are more inclined to ignore the law, or are you suggesting the law has changed?

Either way, he is mistaken, for LEO's anyway. Since the first patriot act was passed the Feds have gotten more authority. Us local and State LEO's...not so much.

 

[SavageEagle]

Either way, he is mistaken, for LEO's anyway. Since the first patriot act was passed the Feds have gotten more authority. Us local and State LEO's...not so much.

Except that, at least for a couple years, LEO's didn't have to obtain a warrant to search a vehicle in a Terry Stop. That may have changed, but that's one thing that did change after 9/11. Deny it all you want, but I had a few friends get busted because they changed lanes without signaling when NO ONE was around them for 1/4 mile in either direction. They fought it in court and lost on the grounds of the Patriot Act. I was searched a few times myself against my will. Once after an accident where I ran a stop sign. I fought it and lost and had to pay court costs and a fine. So to say that local and state LEO's didn't get more authority is utter . Sorry, but YOU are mistaken.

 

[Dashman010]

Except that, at least for a couple years, LEO's didn't have to obtain a warrant to search a vehicle in a Terry Stop. That may have changed, but that's one thing that did change after 9/11. Deny it all you want, but I had a few friends get busted because they changed lanes without signaling when NO ONE was around them for 1/4 mile in either direction. They fought it in court and lost on the grounds of the Patriot Act. I was searched a few times myself against my will. Once after an accident where I ran a stop sign. I fought it and lost and had to pay court costs and a fine. So to say that local and state LEO's didn't get more authority is utter . Sorry, but YOU are mistaken.

SavageEagle, despite the incidents you cite, the passage of the PATRIOT Act does not in any way modify the 4th Amendment jurisprudence that the Supreme Court has shaped for the 4th Amendment. The rule set forth in Terry v. Ohio has been modified slightly over the years, but is still substantially in force. The police cannot simply search your car.

To address your friend being pulled over for not signaling, technically that is a violation of the law, however miniscule it may be. That means the police have probable cause that an infraction has been committed and you can be pulled over. Then, if the officer has a reasonable articulable suspicion that you may be armed, a limited search of your vehicle may be performed for officer safety -- but he must have a reasonable art. susp. of you being some type of threat to him. But a police officer could not, for example, search your trunk in that instance. Nor could he, without RAS search your passenger compartment unless he had probable cause that some violation had been committed.

Just because some police may exceed their authority, or make things up in the aftermath, doesn't mean their LEGAL authority has changed in any way.

 

[pftraining_in]

Any Law Enforcement Officer in the state of Indiana can enforce game laws. Conservation Officers hold the same powers as a State Trooper. They are also held to the same restrictions as any LEO. If you want to get technical they can enforce fewer laws than a City Policeman, Deputy Sheriff or Town Marshal.

Federal LEO: Can only enforce federal law
State Police Officer/Conservation Officer: Can only enforce state law and federal law
Sheriff Deputy: Can enforce federal and state laws and county ordinances
City Officer: Can enforce federal and state laws and city ordinances
Town Marshal: Can enforce federal and state laws and town ordinances

Conservation Officers just receive more training in game laws than other officers, just as a State Trooper receives training in motor carrier inspections.

There is no such thing as an open warrant. All warrants must be signed by a judge and explain the item being searched for. You may only look in a container that may hold an item the size of the item you are searching for.

 

[Eddie]

Evidence

Keep in mind that just because a LEO searches and finds evidence, a judge may still throw that evidence out if it is shown that the LEO did not follow the law when performing the search. As a rule of thumb the appellate courts seem to lean more towards letting police perform searches for their own safety and then throwing the evidence out later rather than saying that they can't search. Of course, if you don't have any contraband in your car, then there is no evidence for the police to seize.

As far as getting tickets for driving left of center or running stop signs, the Patriot Act hasn't changed the traffic laws. If you commit an infraction then you might get a ticket.