DNR Clarifies what rifle round are legal

[Yeah]

OK the standard that has been held up for determining if a round is good for whitetail deer has been will it produce over 1000 ft lbs of energy at the range the animal is shot from. I also sometimes see 800 ft lbs held out as the standard. Sectional Density should also be north of .200 for a hunting bullet.

The advice from anyone holding out energy as a barometer for killing with a centerfire rifle cartridge can easily be ignored. Sectional density seals the deal.

Factors, in order:
1. Shot placement
2. Bullet integrity
...
100. Everything else

The surest way to drop the ball with #1 is to talk a shooter into a boomer under the guise of more energy mitigating misses. The surest way to gloss #2 is to talk headstamps as if all bullets are the same, or in SD as if all of the same weight and bore size are equal.

 

[singlesix]

OK the standard that has been held up for determining if a round is good for whitetail deer has been will it produce over 1000 ft lbs of energy at the range the animal is shot from. I also sometimes see 800 ft lbs held out as the standard. Sectional Density should also be north of .200 for a hunting bullet. You will also see 1600fps held out as a minimum velocity for rifle bullets to expand as designed. ......

So the 357 mag will not make the 1K lb-ft mark for rifle or pistol. Out the barrel it's under 1K, ~500 lbs-ft. 357 dropped a lot of deer, OK all I can say is I've dropped and or seen a lot of deer drop with 357 mag. Heck more seen than dropped myself :-). It seems you have a great deal of concern that using "tactcool" rifles will cause more people to view hunting negatively? Same can be said about people strapping deer to the hood, or in the open, coming into Wal-Mart tagging stations covered in blood, etc, etc, etc. I don't think it's good policy to let fear drive regulations, we have too much of that coming from the Antis.

I've hunted with all type of guns and it comes down to knowing the capabilities of the gun and staying within its limits. Heck I can make an unethical shoot with any type of gun.

 

[rhino]

So the 357 mag will not make the 1K lb-ft mark for rifle or pistol. Out the barrel it's under 1K, ~500 lbs-ft. 357 dropped a lot of deer, OK all I can say is I've dropped and or seen a lot of deer drop with 357 mag. Heck more seen than dropped myself :-). It seems you have a great deal of concern that using "tactcool" rifles will cause more people to view hunting negatively? Same can be said about people strapping deer to the hood, or in the open, coming into Wal-Mart tagging stations covered in blood, etc, etc, etc. I don't think it's good policy to let fear drive regulations, we have too much of that coming from the Antis.

I've hunted with all type of guns and it comes down to knowing the capabilities of the gun and staying within its limits. Heck I can make an unethical shoot with any type of gun.

That pretty much puts to rest whether or not 7.62x39mm is adequate for killing a deer. The .357 magnum from handguns can and has done the job. The ability of 7.62x39mm to kill dwarfs that of .357.

 

[IndyGunSafety]

So much for using my Father's 6.5mm Mauser in the woods.

 

[451_Detonics]

we could always up the argument a notch or two by throwing the Taylor K.O.formula into the mix...

Energy Calculator

 

[Yeah]

You are cruel to joke, there are some that might take that seriously.

 

[Notalentbum]

we could always up the argument a notch or two by throwing the Taylor K.O.formula into the mix...

Energy Calculator

Is this for real?? I never heard of it but I seriously doubt its validity when a .44 handgun round is rated more effective than a .308 Winchester.

Matt

 

[451_Detonics]

I love stirring the

 

[Thor]

Pondero's books were a lot more interesting than that gonculator...every caliber came with a story.

 

[two70]

I kind of wonder if the DNR did not just jump up and call the .311 diameter rounds .308's just to throw a wrench at the whole thing? They clearly did not want us to have rifles in Indiana, and allowing AK's and AR's just might give them some fuel to rouse some feathers in the media. After all its hard to hold up a lever action rifle and show the media the dangerous weapons that are being used in the woods now with the Gov signing this new law. But do the same thing with an AK and the liberals go nuts? Think about it before you call me all kinds of nasty names.

First, ARs have been in the woods ever since PCRs were legalized. Secondly, while many are decrying the inclusion of 7.62x39 and 7.62x 54 as silly mistakes by the DNR, I actually think they did it on purpose to protect hunters from confusion and possible prosecution since the bore diameters of rifles in both calibers vary widely from .308-313. IMO, they almost had to do this or face a situation where someone who handloaded .308 bullets in these calibers would be legal while someone using factory ammo with slightly larger projectiles would not.

 

[Hookeye]

I bet the DNR allowed those cartridges so the lower income deer slayers wouldn't accuse them of class warfare.
Per the old rules, several on this forum and others declared favoritism to those with thicker wallets (trimmed .35 rem or wildcats).
Some simply want to run a cheap gun w cheap ammo.
People are weird.

 

[Hookeye]

$40K truck.............guy wants a $40 scope on his gun.
Seen that way too many times.

 

[two70]

The advice from anyone holding out energy as a barometer for killing with a centerfire rifle cartridge can easily be ignored. Sectional density seals the deal.

Factors, in order:
1. Shot placement
2. Bullet integrity
...
100. Everything else

The surest way to drop the ball with #1 is to talk a shooter into a boomer under the guise of more energy mitigating misses. The surest way to gloss #2 is to talk headstamps as if all bullets are the same, or in SD as if all of the same weight and bore size are equal.

So do you promote hunting brown bears with FMJs from a 5.56?

Energy, especially energy transfer which translates to tissue damage, is important too. It's not as important as shot placement but just as important as the ability of a bullet to hold together long enough to reach the vitals. What good does the highest bullet integrity do, if the round lacks the energy to reach the vitals?

 

[rhino]

So do you promote hunting brown bears with FMJs from a 5.56?

Energy, especially energy transfer which translates to tissue damage, is important too. It's not as important as shot placement but just as important as the ability of a bullet to hold together long enough to reach the vitals. What good does the highest bullet integrity do, if the round lacks the energy to reach the vitals?

The energy of the projectile does not always correlate well to penetration. Penetration is more related to momentum (and sustaining it).

 

[451_Detonics]

The energy of the projectile does not always correlate well to penetration. Penetration is more related to momentum (and sustaining it).

yea...that's what she said...

 

[two70]

The energy of the projectile does not always correlate well to penetration. Penetration is more related to momentum (and sustaining it).

Sure, since momentum is defined as the tendency of objects in motion to stay in motion(unless acted upon by another force) but penetration is not the end all, especially when talking a target as small and soft as a deer.

 

[rhino]

Sure, since momentum is defined as the tendency of objects in motion to stay in motion(unless acted upon by another force) but penetration is not the end all, especially when talking a target as small and soft as a deer.

That's actually the definition of intertia, but okay.

Kinetic energy is great, but it has to do the work to damage tissue where you want. If a bullet stops almost immediately after impact, you might have a spectacular looking but very shallow wound that won't rapidly incapacitate the animal.

 

[whiteoak]

First, ARs have been in the woods ever since PCRs were legalized. Secondly, while many are decrying the inclusion of 7.62x39 and 7.62x 54 as silly mistakes by the DNR, I actually think they did it on purpose to protect hunters from confusion and possible prosecution since the bore diameters of rifles in both calibers vary widely from .308-313. IMO, they almost had to do this or face a situation where someone who handloaded .308 bullets in these calibers would be legal while someone using factory ammo with slightly larger projectiles would not.

I bet the DNR allowed those cartridges so the lower income deer slayers wouldn't accuse them of class warfare.
Per the old rules, several on this forum and others declared favoritism to those with thicker wallets (trimmed .35 rem or wildcats).
Some simply want to run a cheap gun w cheap ammo.
People are weird.

Good Points. I had not thought of either of those.

 

[fatback mike]

Kinda reminds me of when we went to Glendale bird hunting about 10 years ago. We walked about 30 yards into the woods and heard 5 shots and had pieces of leaves fall on our heads. Never went back. I pity anyone who lives near the woods because alot of non educated hunters will be buying hi powered rifles.

 

[singlesix]

Kinda reminds me of when we went to Glendale bird hunting about 10 years ago. We walked about 30 yards into the woods and heard 5 shots and had pieces of leaves fall on our heads. Never went back. I pity anyone who lives near the woods because alot of non educated hunters will be buying hi powered rifles.

Yeah it was much safer when these uneducated hunters were buying shotguns with rifled slug barrels. The blood will flow, run for the hills.