Dispelling the ‘Few Extremists’ Myth – the Muslim World Is Overcome with Hate

[BehindBlueI's]

This video showed up in my email and speaks to this topic. Some of the survey questions referred to need a closer look, such as 39% say "honor killings" are "always, sometimes, or occasionally justified" as opposed to 61% "never" but then some of those surveyed would apply "honor killing" to a rape victim. As for how this applies to the west isn't entirely clear as rural Afghanis or Pakistanis are presumably more fundamentalist than Turks or Syrians, I assume. Then again, the experience of France or Sweden show that distance isn't the buffer that it once was.WATCH: Let's Be Honest - Islam Today Has a Problem (Untold Story of What Muslims Actually Believe) | United with Israel

I assume you'll be posting how Hindus have a problem as well, as honor killings aren't a Muslim issue solely. The Asian Subcontinent as a whole has a cultural problem with honor killings, and no particular religion has a lock on it. The Arab practice of it predates Islam significantly. I don't know enough about Hindu history to know if it predates their religion as well.

Historical Context - Origins of Honour Killing / Honour Killing - Worldwide / Honour Killing - In Countries with Islamic Law - Preliminary Examination of so-called Honour Killings in Canada

Or the fact that Christians in the same cultures also engage in honor killings?

Five important facts about honor killings | OUPblog

Murdered in name of family honour | World news | The Guardian

A completely disgusting practice that needs to be addressed and ended, but not a religious issue any more than dragging a gay person to death behind a truck is a religious issue.

Interestingly enough, though, the Torah (or Old Testament, as you prefer) does mention it. Deuteronomy/Devarim 22/

16 And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders: 'I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;

17 and, lo, he hath laid wanton charges, saying: I found not in thy daughter the tokens of virginity; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city.

18 And the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him.

19 And they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel; and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.

20 But if this thing be true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the damsel;

21 then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die; because she hath wrought a wanton deed in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house; so shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.

22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to a husband, then they shall both of them die, the man that lay with the woman, and the woman; so shalt thou put away the evil from Israel.

23 If there be a damsel that is a virgin betrothed unto a man, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

24 then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die: the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife; so thou shalt put away the evil from the midst of thee.

Just food for thought for those who say they've read the Quran with no context and take everything they see literally, will you now condemn the Torah as well?

I respect about everything that BBI puts out there.
Thing is........how do we separate the extremists from the true believers.
Yes, it is a small (big numbers actually but there are zillions of Muslims) percentage of the total group but they do not carry signs.

Most of the people who do robberies in Marion Co are black. Most black people aren't robbers. How do you tell the difference? Seriously, how do you? You make the threat/no threat decision countless times a day. While nothing is 100% people, particularly with a bit of training, are pretty darned good at picking out threats regardless of why the person is a threat. Take a look at the Combat Hunter program to give a really good idea of how this can play out in something as seemingly impossible as picking out a guerrilla fighter or suicide bomber mingled with a normal indigenous population. Similarly, there are danger signs for radicalization.

2) BBI is an angry old white dude...If you do no believe it read his thread regarding his Ruger Redhawk 45 acp/45 long colt...Plus he wears a fedora...A sure sign of old white dudeness....

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Good lord, don't leave. Your (and the few vocal others like you) ability to wade through the general dis/misinformation spewed around by the "good 'ol-boy" club hereabouts is one of the few reasons many of us stick around. I've met so many INGO members that are truly socially liberal, fiscally conservative, and in person VERY vocal about the same issue(s) that drive you to your wit's end that I cannot count them all. Rest assured they outnumber the vocal minority of angry old white men who are pissed because they're not in charge anymore. Don't let that squeaky wheel minority of tinfoil-hat-wearing xenophobes and bigots who suck up all the bandwidth make a decision for You.

Errr, thanks? I'm going to assume you meant that in a nice way and that you believe most of INGO is socially liberal and fiscally conservative and the minority are shrill FEMA camp Jade Helm tinfoilers. I think your wording may need a bit of cleaning up, as it seems a lot of folks are taking it a different way.

 

[indiucky]

LOL.....You like revolvers...Them is crusty old white dude guns there brother......

 

[7.62]

I assume you'll be posting how Hindus have a problem as well, as honor killings aren't a Muslim issue solely. The Asian Subcontinent as a whole has a cultural problem with honor killings, and no particular religion has a lock on it. The Arab practice of it predates Islam significantly. I don't know enough about Hindu history to know if it predates their religion as well.

Historical Context - Origins of Honour Killing / Honour Killing - Worldwide / Honour Killing - In Countries with Islamic Law - Preliminary Examination of so-called Honour Killings in Canada

Or the fact that Christians in the same cultures also engage in honor killings?

Five important facts about honor killings | OUPblog

Murdered in name of family honour | World news | The Guardian

A completely disgusting practice that needs to be addressed and ended, but not a religious issue any more than dragging a gay person to death behind a truck is a religious issue.

Interestingly enough, though, the Torah (or Old Testament, as you prefer) does mention it. Deuteronomy/Devarim 22/



Just food for thought for those who say they've read the Quran with no context and take everything they see literally, will you now condemn the Torah as well?




Most of the people who do robberies in Marion Co are black. Most black people aren't robbers. How do you tell the difference? Seriously, how do you? You make the threat/no threat decision countless times a day. While nothing is 100% people, particularly with a bit of training, are pretty darned good at picking out threats regardless of why the person is a threat. Take a look at the Combat Hunter program to give a really good idea of how this can play out in something as seemingly impossible as picking out a guerrilla fighter or suicide bomber mingled with a normal indigenous population. Similarly, there are danger signs for radicalization.

Another great post. Have to spread some rep around before hitting you again!

 

[jamil]

BBIs, you have to admit revolver love provides ample evidence of old white-dudeness. The Fedora judt seals it.

 

[Streck-Fu]

Good thing they are acting in the name of their god rather than for their own geopolitical means. I'm glad Western nations never did that:

Sure....but who is doing what today? if you want to make the point that humans are historically self serving a** holess and often use religion as justification for doing bad things, you won't get an argument from me....That doesn't change the fact that all the active terrorism in the world is committed by Muslims.

And don't forget that slavery was legal and active in the middle east into the 1960s and is still active in Islamic areas of Africa....Why did Jefferson send the Marines to Tripoli? Going back to the Crusades, why did European Christians go east to battle the Muslims? It was because of the westaward invasions of the Muslims. The First Crusade started as a response to a request for help from the Byzantine Emperor trying to fight off the Turks.

If your response to a discussion about modern Muslims employing mass murder and terror attacks is to say "But 500 years ago....." you are purposely being obtuse and dishonest about the discussion.

 

[Streck-Fu]

Interestingly enough, though, the Torah (or Old Testament, as you prefer) does mention it. Deuteronomy/Devarim 22/

The difference is that (too) many modern practitioners of Islam literally follow the writings of the Quran while almost no Jews (or Christians for the Old Testament) take such writings seriously today....

This really is a discussion about actions being more important than words.

Most of the people who do robberies in Marion Co are black. Most black people aren't robbers. How do you tell the difference? Seriously, how do you?

Actions.

Is the individual walking down the street or kicking in a store front door with a hoodie up and a gun in his hand? I'd say that is the difference. One requires a reaction and the other doesn't....But at the same time, because we know that most robberies are committed one small group, we are justified in stating that the community that small group comes from, is part of the problem for not doing enough to prevent their kids growing up to become robbers.

Even when removed from the radical centers of the Islamic culture, children of Islamic immigrants are radicalizing at alarming large rates. After they have been moved into western countries and given assistance, housing, jobs, and education, they still choose to radicalize. Why is this? can it really be a lack of acceptance?

LINK

 

[Streck-Fu]

Or the fact that Christians in the same cultures also engage in honor killings?

Ok, so the vast majority of honor killings are perpetrated by Muslims with a few being committed by people practicing other religions in the same areas where Islam is the majority and honor killings are common..... female circumcision predates islam and is practiced by a few non-Muslims as well but also, is practiced by a clear majority if Muslims. Seemingly, far more Muslims are incapable of abandoning these barbaric practices....

So it's a cultural problem, true.....But a culture far more muslims embrace than anyone else.

The link you posted reads as though the authors were trying very hard to find a defense for Islamic culture. And using the the word culture here is intentional as Islam is more than just a religion. It also incorporates political and legal systems for its followers to adhere to.

(4) Islam plays a prominent role in public debates on honor killings, yet honor killings are a pre-Islamic tribal tradition and an extra-judicial punishment that is not part of Sharia law. Honor killings occur among Christian minorities in Arab countries, as well as among the Sikh community in India (and among their respective immigrant communities in the West). They appear to be non-existent in some Muslim-dominate countries, such as Oman, and less frequent in others, such as Algeria and Tunisia. Nonetheless, some interpretations of Islamic law, such as those that promote the lawfulness of husbands’ physical violence against wives, the criminalization of pre- and extramarital sexual relationships, and the use of flogging or stoning if prosecuted as hadd (religious) crimes (which does not happen in most Muslim countries), may contribute indirectly to honor killings.

(5) Findings from the World Values Survey highlight a notable split of orientations in many countries with high levels of honor killings: Democratic political values are commonly endorsed, but public opinion remains much more conservative when it comes to gender equality and sexual liberalization, with almost no trend toward more liberal views among younger age groups.
- See more at: http://blog.oup.com/2014/07/five-important-facts-about-honor-killings/#sthash.n2AOulhy.dpuf

 

[JTScribe]

Sources: Suspect Confesses To Shooting Officer, Says He Did It In the Name Of Islam « CBS Philly

If only he'd read this thread.

 

[Jludo]

Ok, so the vast majority of honor killings are perpetrated by Muslims with a few being committed by people practicing other religions in the same areas where Islam is the majority and honor killings are common..... female circumcision predates islam and is practiced by a few non-Muslims as well but also, is practiced by a clear majority if Muslims. Seemingly, far more Muslims are incapable of abandoning these barbaric practices....

So it's a cultural problem, true.....But a culture far more muslims embrace than anyone else.

The link you posted reads as though the authors were trying very hard to find a defense for Islamic culture. And using the the word culture here is intentional as Islam is more than just a religion. It also incorporates political and legal systems for its followers to adhere to.

Is there a circumcision thread out there somewhere? I'd argue male circumcision is a barbaric practice as well, we are just used to that one.

 

[Libertarian01]

Is there a circumcision thread out there somewhere? I'd argue male circumcision is a barbaric practice as well, we are just used to that one.

Oh for goodness sake please don't start a thread on this! That topic would be a real ringer!

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

Yeah, I like many cheeses, but only the dairy kind.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Oh for goodness sake please don't start a thread on this! That topic would be a real ringer!

I hear the guys who do the surgery just work for tips.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Ok, so the vast majority of honor killings are perpetrated by Muslims with a few being committed by people practicing other religions in the same areas where Islam is the majority and honor killings are common..... female circumcision predates islam and is practiced by a few non-Muslims as well but also, is practiced by a clear majority if Muslims. Seemingly, far more Muslims are incapable of abandoning these barbaric practices....

So it's a cultural problem, true.....But a culture far more muslims embrace than anyone else.

The link you posted reads as though the authors were trying very hard to find a defense for Islamic culture. And using the the word culture here is intentional as Islam is more than just a religion. It also incorporates political and legal systems for its followers to adhere to.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing. The practice predates Islam...yet it's an Islamic issue? That sounds a lot to me like anytime a Muslim does anything it's because he's Muslim.

As for more Muslims, well, yeah. If 10% of a given region does it and 75% of that population is a certain religion, that religion will be overrepresented. That's sort of a given. However if the 25% that's not that religion still does the same thing...again, not really a religious issue. That's like saying more whites engage in crime than blacks in Maine (which, as we recently learned is 95%-ish white). True...but so what? It does not show a correlation.

I also find it interesting that the fact it's not discussed in the Quran has apparently zero bearing in if it's an Islamic issue or not...seems counter to what many here who've claimed to have read the Quran and have attempted to cherry pick and take verses out of context were previously arguing. If it's in the Quran it's Islam so Islam is bad because I read this in a certain way with no idea of context...but this isn't in the Quran so it's also an Islamic problem because some Muslims do it (even though so do others and the practice predates their religion).

If you think Islam is a monolithic culture I'd recommend you look a bit deeper.

 

[Trigger Time]

These are lovely people and their religion teaches love. So they showed it to this woman.
GRUESOME VIDEO: Muslim Mob Tears 27 Year Old Woman Apart Before Killing Her Over False Accusation Of Burning Quran » 100percentfedUp.com
so who wants these animals here doing this on American streets? I don't and will do what I can to prevent it

 

[BehindBlueI's]

These are lovely people and their religion teaches love. So they showed it to this woman.
GRUESOME VIDEO: Muslim Mob Tears 27 Year Old Woman Apart Before Killing Her Over False Accusation Of Burning Quran » 100percentfedUp.com
so who wants these animals here doing this on American streets? I don't and will do what I can to prevent it

Good thing white gun owners haven't committed any atrocities that could be used to paint the entire group.

 

[bman1903]

Really?

Yes, there's a lot of anti-Jewish sentiment. The founding of Israel pretty much guaranteed that would happen. Same as there's a lot of anti-Turk sentiment among Arabs, and the Greeks and Turks aren't generally buddies. Territory disputes tend to do that.

I'd be fascinated how the poll in Pakistan was conducted and of whom. Note the feelings against ISIS are pretty strong close to where they operate. They peter off the further away you get. You do realize not every conflict is of interest to everyone in the world and not everyone is following it with baited breath? Who here has strong feelings on India vs Pakistan? Who here even knew Cyprus was disputed territory between the Greeks and the Turks with a UN border for decades?

Look for what you want, and you'll find it. There's billions of people to choose from. If I were trying to radicalize people, though, this mass condemnation of a religion, Trumps statements, and the like are perfect fuel. It's fantastic for driving a wedge, for showing there really is a War on Islam, and you better fight now before they come for you.

So, out of curiosity, should I leave INGO? It's getting pretty damn tiresome to see mass condemnation, to see Quran quotes taken out of context to further an agenda, and it's pretty damn tiresome to be constantly lumped in with terrorists. Where's the "natural rights" crowd when Trump calls for a ban on an entire religion entering the country. If I married my wife under Trump's plan I just have to stay out of the country forever because you're scared of a pharmacist based on her religion? What about Americans with children born abroad? People with business interests in the US? People who've had visas for decades and never caused an issue visiting relatives here? Are you guys that scared of me and my family? The funny thing is many of the most vocal would actually be pretty in tune with Islam if they looked at what it actually is and not what perverse anti-Islam sources present it to be based on man bites dog stories. Charity. Defense of the weak by the strong. Justice with an understanding of they underlying motive for the crime, not just the crime itself.

So, seriously, should I leave? It seems less and less welcoming here since religion is an allowed topic and I'm constantly told how we are. I've stuck around through the anti-cop bull****, but this is a lot harder to stay calm about as it's not just about me, but about people I love and care about.

You should stay, I don't post a lot, but I do read, and I always read your input because of the experience you have. I may not always agree with what you say (I mostly do) but I value and respect it. If you leave, INGO would lose a great contributor.

 

[jbombelli]

Good thing white gun owners haven't committed any atrocities that could be used to paint the entire group.

Things get used to paint our entire group all the time.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Things get used to paint our entire group all the time.

I'm curious as to your point. So that means we should do the same thing? Or that it's right? Seems like there is a lot of moaning about it when it happens, the "here comes the political messages" after an active shooter, no? So...what's your point?

If I wanted to paint gun owners as evil idiots I surely could. So far this year in Marion Co we've had two self inflicted accidental shootings, 2 murders with firearms, and I *think* 6, but maybe 7, people criminally shot who will survive. In the first 10 days of the year. We've had zero self defense shootings.

Should I take those facts, and they are facts, create a narrative that ignores that there are a couple 100,000 gun owners in the county who didn't make the news or do something stupid, and then actively campaign against gun ownership?

 

[jbombelli]

It happens to every group. White people, black people, Christians, Jews, Muslims, the Boy Scouts, gay people, straight people, Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, Americans, Europeans ... you name the group and it's likely happened to them. That's how the game is played these days wit