Dispelling the ‘Few Extremists’ Myth – the Muslim World Is Overcome with Hate

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I'm curious how many people here actually, personally, know any Muslims?

Me.......I know many in my area.
For the most part good people.
A bit excitable when doing business......well, very excitable.

I don't know if I do or not. I know quite a few people who are from the ME but we've never discussed religion, so I don't know if I do or not. My wife's favorite doctor is from Pakistan. I've got an appointment with him on next Tuesday. We both like him and have utmost faith in his abilities, etc. I have no idea if he's muslim or not.

 

[Que]

I'm curious how many people here actually, personally, know any Muslims?

What do you mean by "know"? Do you mean, work in the same place or live in close proximity and they identify as Muslim or know their name and have taken the time to have a meal with them to know about them?

 

[PaulF]

I don't know if I do or not. I know quite a few people who are from the ME but we've never discussed religion, so I don't know if I do or not. My wife's favorite doctor is from Pakistan. I've got an appointment with him on next Tuesday. We both like him and have utmost faith in his abilities, etc. I have no idea if he's muslim or not.

This will probably sound weird coming from me, but that's the kind of faith I have. I have faith in people.

I think that people are generally good, and will try to be good to other people when the game is setup to allow it. I don't think religion, as a personal identifier, is a very good way of picking the "good" people from the "bad" people. I imagine that most of the problems that "we" actually have with "them" are caused by failures in our various "leadership" positions...on all sides. "They" don't like what the US Government is going in their region? That's a good starting point for a discussion...neither do I. "We" don't like the violence being carried out in the name of "Islam"? I'd be willing to bet there are over a billion devout Muslims in the world who might agree with "us" on that point...if we could get a dialog started and keep it properly framed.

At the end of the day, I think most "normal" people, of any faith" want to be left alone by their government and others to live their lives as they see fit. If only the "elite" would allow us to do that.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

Just saw this thread and had to comment...

PaulF - I agreed with your post above. On that kind of faith, you and I certainly agree. Props to you, sir.

BBI - THANK YOU for bringing this conversation up. This has been an issue that has been on my mind. I believe you to be a good person - based on our interactions here. Just as I believe PaulF , Jamil, GFGT, Techres (that goes back a ways) and a bunch of others to be. I'm pretty sure that you couldn't find a further apart group in terms of religious affiliation (or lack thereof). But I have built respect for all of the above through our conversations. Any of the above folks would be welcome in my home for sure.

As many here know, I am Mormon. When you have people telling you what you believe, and that bugs you - I GET IT. When people lump all folks of your religion into one tidy group - whether it fits or not - I GET IT. And there are examples of folks doing this a lot from all directions. What PaulF and others are saying is correct - religion does not determine good or bad. That is overly simplistic. And highly inaccurate. And right now - there's a lot of people with a lot of incentive (think Trump, Obama, Hillary) to fan the flames. That is unfortunate.

What is needed in America right now is a steady hand on the rudder of the ship. And with the current IMPOTUS we have no such leadership. It is not a binary choice whether to accept refugees or not. It is certainly reasonable to have concerns about our safety in bringing folks into the country. It is also reasonable to say that if we are a country built on the backs of immigration. It is not all or nothing as Trump and Obama would have folks believe. We have the ability to protect ourselves while still maintaining freedom.

If people are pointing fingers at Muslims today, they can just as easily be pointing fingers at Mormons, or Jews , or Baptists, or Pentecostals, or Agnostics, or Atheists, or Buddhists, or Castrated Rastafarians, or whomever tomorrow. In my opinion, it's time to slow down. Depoliticize the process a bit. Treat folks the way that we would want to be treated. That doesn't mean be a Polyanna and assume that everything is peace, love and Unicorn farts.

YES, there are people who want to kill us for cultural reasons. Many of them happen to be Muslim. YES there are those who would kill you for wearing the wrong colors in a gang area. Many of them happen to be African American. Do we kill/expel/castigate all black folks because of that? No... So why should we lump all Muslims together? Or any other group? Root out the bad ones and punish/isolate them. It CAN be done.

I encourage all here to slow down a bit and think. Be prepared to defend our families and ourselves - that would only be prudent. Investigate folks where it is merited. BUT please think twice before falling victim to the politics of hate in ANY direction. A measured and steady approach to the issue is the correct one from what I can see.

BBI - you are welcome at my home anytime.

 

[ajeandy]

I

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what it takes to be a Christian. It's really the most beautiful and simplest things in the world. You aren't required to be perfect or divine or anything so impossible for us sinners. Love God with all of your heart and soul; recognize you sin and your sins -- then with a contrite heart, repent them, and seek forgiveness through the gift God gave us all when He sent Jesus to earth to die for our sins. Then, love your neighbor as you love yourself. How easy is that?

Sounds to me like you're trying to make it sound appealing. Would that be considered trying to convert someone? Go figure.

 

[churchmouse]

YES, there are people who want to kill us for cultural reasons. Many of them happen to be Muslim. YES there are those who would kill you for wearing the wrong colors in a gang area. Many of them happen to be African American. Do we kill/expel/castigate all black folks because of that? No... So why should we lump all Muslims together? Or any other group? Root out the bad ones and punish/isolate them. It CAN be done.

I encourage all here to slow down a bit and think. Be prepared to defend our families and ourselves - that would only be prudent. Investigate folks where it is merited. BUT please think twice before falling victim to the politics of hate in ANY direction. A measured and steady approach to the issue is the correct one from what I can see.

BBI - you are welcome at my home anytime.

This pretty much covers it.

 

[churchmouse]

Sounds to me like you're trying to make it sound appealing. Would that be considered trying to convert someone? Go figure.

I do not see this as trying to convert.
You can have these quality's without the church affiliations.

 

[chipbennett]

It's been really heartening to see so many people reach out. I certainly don't want to leave, I want to make sure I was still welcome here and evaluate that vs the energy and stress expended here.

Why would you be unwelcome? You're one of my favorite posters. That you adhere to a different faith changes nothing.

 

[churchmouse]

Why would you be unwelcome? You're one of my favorite posters. That you adhere to a different faith changes nothing.

He would be welcome here as well. Not sure I can drink the but hey, give most anything a try.....once.

 

[chipbennett]

He would be welcome here as well. Not sure I can drink the but hey, give most anything a try.....once.

I don't know. BBI's coffee might not be quite strong enough for me... but I'd still gladly have him over to my house for both coffee, and cheeseburgers.

 

[ajeandy]

If people just followed the golden rule I think the world would be a better place. Why can't people just respect each other and not be rude?

 

[rob63]

Quite obviously, the political class, in this case, Trump, is succeeding with one of their favorite tools. Find a division and exploit it. Race, religion, political party, whatever they can use. We become divided and we weaken. Our weakness strengthens them. I mean, look at us. One of the most stand up guys on this site, whose post quality is so high he should be given site supporter status, serves his community, on and on, is at serious odds with people that would otherwise enjoy his company, possibly pay him for training, and enjoy a shared hobby, cheeseburger or brew together. We don't have a Muslim problem in this country. We have an ISIS, Obama and Trump problem. (That is not to equate the three, don't misunderstand me.)

I'm very late to the thread and I can't rep you or BBI again, so please excuse me bringing up something from way back in the thread. Very well said!

My wife and I were talking about the possibility that we could actually have a Trump vs. Hillary election and she commented "since when did the Presidential election become just another reality TV show?" It seems to be where we are as a nation, discussion of any topic now has to fit on a meme. This thread is a nice exception to that!

 

[chipbennett]

I'm very late to the thread and I can't rep you or BBI again, so please excuse me bringing up something from way back in the thread. Very well said!

My wife and I were talking about the possibility that we could actually have a Trump vs. Hillary election and she commented "since when did the Presidential election become just another reality TV show?" It seems to be where we are as a nation, discussion of any topic now has to fit on a meme. This thread is a nice exception to that!

This phenomenon is one of the main reasons I am not yet engaged in the presidential primary. I love seeing the way that Trump threatens the stranglehold that the Establishment and Chamber of Commerce have on the Republican party, but I'm not sold on him as our eventual candidate. Jeb would be a disaster, and the ones I could most get behind - solid governors like Walker or Perry - seem to be non-starters. So, here I sit, on the sidelines.

 

[patience0830]

Thanks. Truly.

Patience is not my strongest virtue. Probably not even in the top 10. I've spent a long time on tamping down my temper, I guess patience is my next struggle. Maybe grudge holding. That's going to be a tough one. If grudge holding was an Olympic event, my grandmother would have been a gold medalist, so at least I come by that one honest.

Tough one for me too, brother. I still harbor a couple from high school and I know it isn't doing me any good, or the object of the grudge any harm. Some wounds take longer to heal.

Religion is a funny thing. It can bring out the best in people and the worst. Maybe what comes out is more of a reflection of what is inside the person than what is inside the religion.

Not having read the whole Q'uran or the whole Bible nor the accompanying texts and scholarly works I'm going through life dealing with folks as individuals. Depending on how we treat each other to decide how to behave. Try to smile and say hello to everybody. If we have a common language, converse a bit.
Go into the world expecting the best of everyone but prepared to deal with the worst.

Maintain your S/A, and watch your 6.

 

[churchmouse]

If people just followed the golden rule I think the world would be a better place. Why can't people just respect each other and not be rude?

A very good question.

I have answers but they would be considered rude.

 

[ajeandy]

A very good question.

I have answers but they would be considered rude.

How do you figure? I know people are jacka$$es. I'm not directing that at anyone specifically.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Why would you be unwelcome? You're one of my favorite posters. That you adhere to a different faith changes nothing.

Well, go read several recent posts and substitute "you and your family" for "Muslims" and then see if you would feel welcome.

 

[Kutnupe14]

What do you mean by "know"? Do you mean, work in the same place or live in close proximity and they identify as Muslim or know their name and have taken the time to have a meal with them to know about them?

How about simply had a conversation with, and you could recognize if they were out and about? Know well enough that you could have a good idea of what type of person they are.

 

[Jludo]

I'm curious how many people here actually, personally, know any Muslims?

One of my world politics professors in college was Muslim but I'd never tell anyone on INGO, less they realize I'm just a liberally indoctrinated millennial...

 

[BehindBlueI's]

"They" don't like what the US Government is going in their region? That's a good starting point for a discussion...neither do I.

When you talk to Arabs, the main complaints are:

1) US backing Israel while allowing them to continue to push Palestinians out
2) US military never leaving once they get somewhere
3) Innocents killed in drone strikes


My answers to those have been:
1) Most Americans don't REALLY know what's going on any more than you (particular Arab) closely follow and look into the motivations in Russia V Ukraine or paid any attention to Rwanda. You care a lot because you know people affected and because it's on your doorstep. You know a lot more about the issue and get a lot more news coverage of it. So, tell me, who's right in the Russia V Ukraine and what are the underlying issues? Then I admit I don't know anything about the Ukraine thing either, that none of us pay attention to all conflicts and that what is important to one person may not be important to someone else. While there is a strong pro-Israel sentiment, few people are actively backing anything Israel does and news coverage certainly isn't balanced, but there are contingents for peace and who understand a bit more of the issues facing Palestine.

2) That this isn't true, we've left many places, but sometimes once you get there then you've got to stick around or make things worse by leaving a vacuum. I also point out Russian involvement in Syria and ask if they think if the US stayed home if Russia, Iran, and China would also stay home. They generally admit that this is unlikely. I then ask if they'd rather have the US meddling or Russian meddling. So far, we seem to be the preferred meddlers.

3) Probably not a good answer, but poo happens in war and sometimes the targets intentionally use innocents to shield them. Sometimes you have to kill to make peace, and killing warlords and the prime movers behind insurrections results in less over all death and suffering then leaving them be. Mohammed killed tribes that threatened his people and spared tribes that did not, would he not have used drone strikes to kill chieftains and not have to fight through the rank and file to get to the leadership? I can't argue we shouldn't use drone strikes, I think targeted assassination is preferable to ground warfare for everyone but those targeted for assassination.

Numbers are meaningless to people, we learn through and relate to narratives. Reframing the narrative and giving a new perspective works pretty well. A viable two state solution for Israel/Palestine, a homeland for the Kurds (sort of done via the autonomous region in Iraq), and time to figure out the transition to more democratic styles of government are going to help. Transitioning to democracy, especially for a people completely unused to it, is not a quick or clean task. Even the US had rebellions and serious questions on how things would work after our Revolution.