I am currently shooting deer with a 358 wssm and love it. My question is if the new law passes and we can use 1.8 case length what is gonna be the new deer round? I have heard talk of a 300wsm fitted with a 358 bullet? Is this possible? I would like to get the fastest, hardest hitting round available that Indiana allows? YOUR THOUGHTS? THANKS in advance.
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Deer Round
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That is the very same question I have. I am gonna call Jim Swimm at S and S machine and pick his brain on the matter. There is a program that will calculate the ballistics as well based on case dimensions, bore diameter etc, but I am having an old timers moment and can't think of it right off. My buddy has it and I am gonna run this past him and see if I can get him to use his engineering degree for something important for a change. I will let you know what I find out.
Your already shooting a good round, with enough power to kill 2 deer standing together, probably as accurate as a hunting gun ever needs to be.
Why would you change?
So far it looks like per Quickload data from my friend that you only gain 6 grs more of case capacity going to the 300 WSSM at 1.8 in long. But there are other cases that would be alot more expensive, would start to be somewhat overbore, but would offer quite abit more case capacity. Anyway still checking but hope to get back on more info soon.
Google the .358 Grant
A 1.8" version of the WSM would follow the same brass forming process as that one, it would just be slightly longer.
My rough calculations say a 1.8" case based on the WSM would have the same case capacity as the .35 Whelen.
A 1.8" version of the WSM would follow the same brass forming process as that one, it would just be slightly longer.
My rough calculations say a 1.8" case based on the WSM would have the same case capacity as the .35 Whelen.
ill be machining my 358 bfg on sunday. i dont think the 1.8 will effect preformance very much at all. defintally not enough to switch from your current gun.
contact fireball168 on here and get his opinion. he has been down the cartrige design road before, so he will probably have some good insight
contact fireball168 on here and get his opinion. he has been down the cartrige design road before, so he will probably have some good insight
QuickDesign to design the cartridge, sends the data to QuickLoad for interior ballistics, then to QuickTarget for exterior.
It is very quick.
If this new rule passes it might get me into the Indiana deer rifle game. I have a couple of .540" donors that could maybe turn into something.
Soooooo, am I to understand. . .
that it is legal to shoot short magnums at deer, but illegal to shoot the relatively anemic old standby 30-30????
Is that what I am reading?
that it is legal to shoot short magnums at deer, but illegal to shoot the relatively anemic old standby 30-30????
Is that what I am reading?
Quick Load ! Yeah , thats it, thanks for the Reminder.
Vanguard- In what the DNR calls a pistol caliber rifle (PCR) it is legal to shoot any cartridge that meets the exterior dimensions that the DNR rules allow. Min bullet diameter of .35 ( so that leaves out the 30-30 in a rifle, but it is legal in a handgun, as the min. bullet diameter in a handgun is .243) and a max case length of 1.6 ( which also disallows the 30-30 in a PCR, there is no max case length restriction for a pistol) .
The new proposal allows a max case length of 1.8 in a PCR.
We are not talking about shooting a standard WSSM in a rifle being legal for deer. What we are talking about is taking a WSSM and trimming it back to meet the max case length restriction and blowing out the neck to meet the min. bullet diameter of 35 cal. Thereby making a legal "wildcat' cartridge. This has already been done by many with much success. It is fairly common from what I understand to get velocities of 2700 fps with a 225 gr 35 cal bullet in one of these 35 WSSM wildcats. It certainly does far exceed the old 30-30 ballistically by a huge performance margin.
Vanguard- In what the DNR calls a pistol caliber rifle (PCR) it is legal to shoot any cartridge that meets the exterior dimensions that the DNR rules allow. Min bullet diameter of .35 ( so that leaves out the 30-30 in a rifle, but it is legal in a handgun, as the min. bullet diameter in a handgun is .243) and a max case length of 1.6 ( which also disallows the 30-30 in a PCR, there is no max case length restriction for a pistol) .
The new proposal allows a max case length of 1.8 in a PCR.
We are not talking about shooting a standard WSSM in a rifle being legal for deer. What we are talking about is taking a WSSM and trimming it back to meet the max case length restriction and blowing out the neck to meet the min. bullet diameter of 35 cal. Thereby making a legal "wildcat' cartridge. This has already been done by many with much success. It is fairly common from what I understand to get velocities of 2700 fps with a 225 gr 35 cal bullet in one of these 35 WSSM wildcats. It certainly does far exceed the old 30-30 ballistically by a huge performance margin.
CountryBoy19
Grandmaster
The IN deer hunting cartridge rules are very easy to understand if you read them. Are you asking us to read them to you?
I'm getting 2320-2380fps from a 22" barrel and 225gr bullets. The only claims I have seen of 2700fps are with a 180gr bullet - I haven't been able to get there yet, but I think it's do-able. With the powders I have tried so far, the 200gr bullets seem to be the sweet spot for bullet weights and powder burn rates, getting 2560fps, and I think I can go up a bit more. BTW, I am not seating bullets to the cannelure and all the top loads are compressed.
I thought the 1.8" cartridge length proposal was history and no longer being considered. How many grains are you able to put in the 358 cartridge? I would think something like a 500 S&W mag necked down to .35 cal might be pretty strong if the pressures aren't too high. I think SSK has necked them down to 45 cal, not sure about .35. I just use a standard 500 S&W mag carbine. Kills em pretty good.
Bullet or powder? The case capacity of the .358 WSSM is ~57gr of H2O (same as .358 Win). I am using 180gr to 225gr bullets. Case capacity of a WSM shortened to 1.8" will approach the .35 Whelen (71gr H2O)
The WSSM/WSM case diameter is larger than the .500 S&W, so there is little point to try, unless you're wanting a single shot rifle. (0.555" to 0.546" at the shoulder on the WSSM, 0.555" to 0.538" at the shoulder on the WSM, and 0.530" on the .500 S&W). In fact the WSSM/WSM case is larger in diameter than the WM, RCM, RUM, and SAUM. Also unless you can find basic brass for the .500, you can't take advantage of the 1.8" rule.
Kludge thanks for the info, really good post. I don't have quickload and my memory is bad, so please bear with me. I have been talking via PM on another website with a buddy who is an engineer about this same subject. For some reason he is telling me that the 300 REM SAUM is gonna be easier to make work then the WSSM because of the neck angles and that the increase in H20 would be 6 grs or 20%. I think he might have missed out on something after reading your post that the WSSM is a fatter case then the Rem SAUM.
Am I correct so far?
Secondly, if the length increase of 1.8 over 1.6 in the WSSM adds 4 grs of H20, doesn't that work out to about 15 % increased case capacity? If so that would seem to me to be significant enough to consider using a longer barrel and slower powders to take advantage of the increased capacity. Just thinkin out loud here and very interested in your comments.
Thirdly, I suppose in my exuberance I mis quoted someone relative to the speed they were getting. But your numbers make sense especially in a 22 in barrel. Barrel length really is a personal choice and 22 makes a nice all round rifle. However if someone wanted to build a bean field burner they might go a bit longer. Of course there is a point of diminishing returns which each cartridge, but I don't know what it would be here. I also notice you said the 200 gr was the sweet spot. Ok I'll buy that, but doesn't the 225 have a better BC? If so, where does the trajectory curve in relation to muzzle velocity tilt the scale in favor of one over the other? I suppose one must consider what they are trying to get in regards to max effective range. I think most guys who travel this road are looking for max-max and have the shooting skills to match, at least I hope so.
Anyway if one can increase the case capacity 15-20 percent, use a different powder and a higher BC bullet, and possibly a longer barrel to get more burn time for the slower propellant, best case scenario would be???
I hope I am not asking for too much info here, I know these are not off the top o' da head Q&A. Please forgive me if I presume to much. Thank you, D
Am I correct so far?
Secondly, if the length increase of 1.8 over 1.6 in the WSSM adds 4 grs of H20, doesn't that work out to about 15 % increased case capacity? If so that would seem to me to be significant enough to consider using a longer barrel and slower powders to take advantage of the increased capacity. Just thinkin out loud here and very interested in your comments.
Thirdly, I suppose in my exuberance I mis quoted someone relative to the speed they were getting. But your numbers make sense especially in a 22 in barrel. Barrel length really is a personal choice and 22 makes a nice all round rifle. However if someone wanted to build a bean field burner they might go a bit longer. Of course there is a point of diminishing returns which each cartridge, but I don't know what it would be here. I also notice you said the 200 gr was the sweet spot. Ok I'll buy that, but doesn't the 225 have a better BC? If so, where does the trajectory curve in relation to muzzle velocity tilt the scale in favor of one over the other? I suppose one must consider what they are trying to get in regards to max effective range. I think most guys who travel this road are looking for max-max and have the shooting skills to match, at least I hope so.
Anyway if one can increase the case capacity 15-20 percent, use a different powder and a higher BC bullet, and possibly a longer barrel to get more burn time for the slower propellant, best case scenario would be???
I hope I am not asking for too much info here, I know these are not off the top o' da head Q&A. Please forgive me if I presume to much. Thank you, D
I will comment as long as you realize that anything I say about the 1.8" case is conjecture...
WSSM isn't going to get you to 1.8" you'll have to start with a WSM, but perhaps you know that already. Also the .25 WSSM has a 30 deg shoulder, the .300 WSM is 35 deg, and the .300 SAUM is 30 deg, but it's your wildcat and you can make it whatever you want. The shoulder on any of the cases will have to be pushed back.
In this thread -- 358 Wssm - Shooters Forum -- Look for posts by D Grant and he shows a picture of the brass forming/fireform process when starting with a WSM case. It will be similar for any of the cases that you might choose. He chose a 40 degree shoulder and a short neck to maximize the cartridge under the 1.625" rule. He's getting ~200fps advantage over the WSSM case.
In general, with powders that are too slow for the cartridge you usually fill the case before you hit the pressure limit. So basically the .358 1.625" case your looking at powders that work with .358 Winchester and with the .358 1.8" case you're looking at powders that work with the .35 Whelen, YMMV, since the case capacity of a 1.8" case is based on a drawing and a few assumptions, not an actual measurement.
WRT barrel length, I chose a 22" barrel based on my experience with the .308 (similar case capacity) to keep my length as short as possible and velocity as high as possible. Were I to choose a cartridge with a case capacity similar to a .35 Whelen, then I would probably have gone to a 24" barrel. Many magnum hunting rifles come from the factory with 24" barrels, but the 1.8" .358 will not have the case capacity of a magnum.
As far as the 200gr being the sweet spot, it's based only the powders and bullets that I have tried, and e-mail conversations with the bullet manufacturers. The 200gr Hornady has a BC of .282 and the 225gr SGK has a BC of .384, IIRC. Trajectories are very close and the 225gr retains more energy. However, the 225gr falls below 1900fps sooner, which is where Sierra says that the bullet performance starts to become questionable on whitetail. On elk however, he said 1700fps would probably be OK. there are other bullets like the Barnes and Noslers with better BC's, but cost is always a factor, and with those bullets you start to encroach more on powder space since they are VERY long.
What's the best case? I haven't seen any claims, but approaching or matching .35 Whelen performance seems possible with the 1.8" case.
WSSM isn't going to get you to 1.8" you'll have to start with a WSM, but perhaps you know that already. Also the .25 WSSM has a 30 deg shoulder, the .300 WSM is 35 deg, and the .300 SAUM is 30 deg, but it's your wildcat and you can make it whatever you want. The shoulder on any of the cases will have to be pushed back.
In this thread -- 358 Wssm - Shooters Forum -- Look for posts by D Grant and he shows a picture of the brass forming/fireform process when starting with a WSM case. It will be similar for any of the cases that you might choose. He chose a 40 degree shoulder and a short neck to maximize the cartridge under the 1.625" rule. He's getting ~200fps advantage over the WSSM case.
In general, with powders that are too slow for the cartridge you usually fill the case before you hit the pressure limit. So basically the .358 1.625" case your looking at powders that work with .358 Winchester and with the .358 1.8" case you're looking at powders that work with the .35 Whelen, YMMV, since the case capacity of a 1.8" case is based on a drawing and a few assumptions, not an actual measurement.
WRT barrel length, I chose a 22" barrel based on my experience with the .308 (similar case capacity) to keep my length as short as possible and velocity as high as possible. Were I to choose a cartridge with a case capacity similar to a .35 Whelen, then I would probably have gone to a 24" barrel. Many magnum hunting rifles come from the factory with 24" barrels, but the 1.8" .358 will not have the case capacity of a magnum.
As far as the 200gr being the sweet spot, it's based only the powders and bullets that I have tried, and e-mail conversations with the bullet manufacturers. The 200gr Hornady has a BC of .282 and the 225gr SGK has a BC of .384, IIRC. Trajectories are very close and the 225gr retains more energy. However, the 225gr falls below 1900fps sooner, which is where Sierra says that the bullet performance starts to become questionable on whitetail. On elk however, he said 1700fps would probably be OK. there are other bullets like the Barnes and Noslers with better BC's, but cost is always a factor, and with those bullets you start to encroach more on powder space since they are VERY long.
What's the best case? I haven't seen any claims, but approaching or matching .35 Whelen performance seems possible with the 1.8" case.
CountryBoy19
Grandmaster
I already said it once in this thread but since you must have missed it I'll put it right here.
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