Curing the Tactical Turtle

[Rhoadmar]

So we see similar setups and two different reactions. Why do you think the gentleman in the 2nd video went immediately into fighting?

He might have been really jumped before but Rob is probably correct. He thought it would be funny on camera.

 

[Rob377]

I apologize for the poor setup for the sales pitch, my bad.

 

[esrice]

He might have been really jumped before but Rob is probably correct. He thought it would be funny on camera.

So you think that video was staged? That's certainly possible.

 

[rvb]

Perhaps this is the crux of where we disagree. I absolutely believe that such things can be trained "regularly in context under stress with a real startle stimulus". Just because many people do not doesn't mean that it's not possible.

No, but fighter pilots of have been "losing" dogfights for years on high-tech simulators. They don't just jump in a plane and go at it.

I don't know that we can compare fighter simulators w/ hundreds of controls and complex computer and communication and weapons systems in scenarios that take minutes to play out to our our hardware with one switch that takes seconds to play out. W/ modern radar systems, etc, how "startled" are fighter pilots in combat (or in simulators)? I don't think that's apples/apples.

I just don't understand how you teach repetitively being startled over and over in training.... Boo! doesn't work if you know the Boo! is coming. You can try to think about something else before the go signal, but I don't believe trainers are getting real startle reactions. I want to see vids from those courses where people are reacting like in those two youtube clips.

So here's a really basic example showing several different people's reactions to being startled. Watch their hands, shoulders, and heads. Any conclusions to be drawn from this?

I conclude it would have been far funnier had he tried that with this guy.

I think we need a "goldilocks" reaction if a gun is involved. Those are the too cold and too hot reactions. It wouldn't have been [as] funny if the dude had gotten shot rather than punched.

-rvb

 

[esrice]

I don't know that we can compare fighter simulators w/ hundreds of controls and complex computer and communication and weapons systems in scenarios that take minutes to play out to our our hardware with one switch that takes seconds to play out. W/ modern radar systems, etc, how "startled" are fighter pilots in combat (or in simulators)? I don't think that's apples/apples.

I was comparing the simulated dogfights to our ability to realistically incorporate failure into our training-- not to being startled.

I just don't understand how you teach repetitively being startled over and over in training.... Boo! doesn't work if you know the Boo! is coming. You can try to think about something else before the go signal, but I don't believe trainers are getting real startle reactions. I want to see vids from those courses where people are reacting like in those two youtube clips.

You do it through FoF by incorporating scenarios that don't require any startle response. Not every scenario should be a "shoot" situation. Each scenario is unique and requires an appropriate response, even if that response has nothing to do with shooting or being shot. Like you touched on though, this is difficult (non-existent?) in traditional firearms training where strings of fire always start with a buzzer, or verbalization, or even a visual stimulus. You know it's coming, and you already know what your response will be (shoot x rounds here, then x rounds here). There's no decision making there.

 

[Rhoadmar]

So you think that video was staged? That's certainly possible.

Possible, probable but not certain.

 

[esrice]

Possible, probable but not certain.

It's also possible it could be the other option you suggested-- the young man had experience with such things and he reacted in the way that would normally increase his survivability.

Either way, I think it's something we can learn from.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I think getting hung up on a real startle response is getting caught up in minutiae. I've never really been startled in hand to hand training, never felt like "hey, this guy is really trying to kill me." Once when I was locking up a guy I'd locked up 3-4 times before without incident he decided to turn and swing on me. I was a shiny new rookie and was caught completely off guard by the attack given my history with this guy. My ribs were cracked early in the fight. I didn't think I'd said a word after the first blow. However the recording clearly has my voice both getting on the radio to call "resister" and giving verbal commands throughout the fight. I did what I was trained to do, regardless of being startled or not.

I was never really startled in basic/AIT either. The first time I was in a guard tower and heard an explosion and saw the smoke I ducked, charged my M-16, and was on the field phone before the dirt landed. I did what I was trained to do, regardless of startle factor.

I was never really started in EVOC training, but I almost crapped my pants the first time I spun my patrol car out running too hot on a rain slicked road. I reacted the same way I was taught to react to a skid I knew was coming on the EVOC course, again, regardless of startle factor.

I'm with Esrice on this one. Realistic training is very much like a flight simulator, and FoF/FATS training has no replacement.

Its also great to have the takeway from real world incidents you find yourself involved in. I, for example, know that I'm very susceptible to auditory exclusion. I've yet to find a way to train this out of myself, but in a life and death situation I am essentially deaf.

 

[HICKMAN]

so... for the guys who've been shot at for real, have you taken training with airsoft and thought "dang... that's just like the real thing!!!' ?

 

[Rob377]

so... for the guys who've been shot at for real, have you taken training with airsoft and thought "dang... that's just like the real thing!!!' ?

That's the point I was trying to make - it will NEVER be like the real thing, when you know it's for realsies. (Unless they took my suggestion to start shooting up with adrenaline shots )

Fortunately, it doesn't really have to be.

 

[esrice]

That's the point I was trying to make - it will NEVER be like the real thing, when you know it's for realsies.

No one will ever suggest that FoF is the REAL thing. But it is the closest we can currently get without being the real thing.

But that is a great excuse for not doing it.

 

[esrice]

so... for the guys who've been shot at for real, have you taken training with airsoft and thought "dang... that's just like the real thing!!!' ?

I can't claim to know if this INGOer has ever been shot at (it's pretty likely given his job), but here was his take on FoF. He'd be a good one to answer your direct question.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo.../291555-mindset-labs-vehicle-force-force.html

 

[Rob377]

No one will ever suggest that FoF is the REAL thing. But it is the closest we can currently get without being the real thing.

But that is a great excuse for not doing it.

I'd say its a fairly lame excuse, personally.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

so... for the guys who've been shot at for real, have you taken training with airsoft and thought "dang... that's just like the real thing!!!' ?

No, no more than practicing a tourniquet application on someone who isn't really bleeding and writhing in pain and freaking the eff out isn't the same as you'll likely do in a real world situation. However going through the motions in a "as close as you can reasonably get" translates over pretty well.

 

[esrice]

No, no more than practicing a tourniquet application on someone who isn't really bleeding and writhing in pain and freaking the eff out isn't the same as you'll likely do in a real world situation.

MangoTango here on INGO is a medic who happens to specialize in medical simulation training (basically FoF for medical professionals). As a roleplayer I knew I would have to be convincing in her scenario because she's used to training in medical scenarios. I writhed and freaked the eff out so well she later told me that she considered that an accident had occurred and that I really was injured. I guess we needed a safe word.

 

[HICKMAN]

wasn't really asking those who haven't been shot at.

As a former soldier who was out living as a civilian looong before 9/11 and has taken FoF training ( and loved it), I was just wondering.

I like FoF because of the scenarios / situations it makes you deal with, it sort of helps you pre-stage in your mind different things that might happen.
I still have ZERO belief that the shooting in it prepares you in anyway for the real deal.

I have far more confidence in my ability because I have THOUSANDS of real rounds leaving my gun every year for the past several years shooting at various moving targets and my ability to hit targets while I'm moving. People say "that's great, but they aren't shooting back"... true. But not a single one of us really knows until that first real round comes your way.

I do believe in training and hope to take more, I just take issue sometimes with people having a false sense of confidence when they've never been tested. One thing I love about my job is the ability to shoot the shiz with people who've been in real hairy spots and don't mind talking about it.

 

[HICKMAN]

No, no more than practicing a tourniquet application on someone who isn't really bleeding and writhing in pain and freaking the eff out isn't the same as you'll likely do in a real world situation. However going through the motions in a "as close as you can reasonably get" translates over pretty well.

understood. Great example btw way, had a very similar talk with my son (army medic) before he deployed.

 

[esrice]

I still have ZERO belief that the shooting in it prepares you in anyway for the real deal.

I'm curious then why you do it and like it? Isn't the whole purpose of training to be better prepared for the real deal?

 

[HICKMAN]

already answered, I like the real scenarios / situations.

I watch various FoF videos from various places... you see most of them standing their shooting it out like the OK Corral.

I'm not saying it doesn't help one prepare in a way, I think some have a false sense of confidence.

I'm not pickin on you Evan, you have a job to do and a company to promote. You believe in the system you teach and that's admirable.

I trust your opinion enough to have MindsetLabs on my list of "must attend".

 

[cedartop]

.
I watch various FoF videos from various places... you see most of them standing their shooting it out like the OK Corral.

.
..

We start with exactly that, to show why it is a bad idea.