Curing the Tactical Turtle

[esrice]

Here's a recent blog by Mr. Giddings (Ahab) wherein he puts down one shooting posture in favor of another.

I disagree with Mr. Giddings.

Curing the Tactical Turtle | Gun Nuts

Actually I both agree and disagree. Under the umbrella of recreational or competitive shooting I think he makes some excellent points. The "deep isosceles" or "tactical turtle" as he calls it probably isn't the best posture for shooting as fast as possible and engaging multiple known targets. He's correct that the top competitive shooters utilize a more upright posture.

Where he goes wrong is in assuming that the "tactical turtle" posture is solely a shooting posture. It's not, it's a fighting posture. And because there is more going on in a fight than simply shooting, it fits quite well in that context where things like muscle fatigue are less important.

As mentioned in the article, the body's natural "startle response" is often manifested as the hands coming up and the head going down. The knees will also bend and your weight will shift in preparation for explosive movement. The "tactical turtle" recognizes this and seeks to work with the body instead of against it.

But what about race car drivers and others who train to work through the body's natural reactions? If they can do it, shooters can too, right? Sure they can, if they're actually training regularly in context under stress with a real startle stimulus. But how many folks are actually training this way? Force on force is a great way to learn how being startled will affect you, and yet amazingly I see lots of the "tactical turtle" when the shots start flying in people's direction during scenarios. In some cases its actually a really ugly contorted version of "tactical turtle".

Mr. Giddings certainly isn't "training to better his survival reflex" in competitions. What's startling about a shot timer?

So I personally see his entire premise as an apples-to-oranges comparison. One posture is better for gaming and one is better for fighting. Using a competition posture would leave you exposed in a fight (if you were even able to maintain it), and using "tactical turtle" in a competition would net you lower scores.

Know the context you're training for and utilize the tactics and techniques that best fit that context.

Side note: In the article's comments Mr. Giddings states that his article is about shooting, and not fighting. In that context, as stated above, I agree with him. I'm just not sure why he chose to include the last 2 paragraphs if he wasn't also advocating the upright posture for defensive use.

 

[pitbulld45]

When shtf you will revert back to how you train. If you shoot standing straight up and stationary every time you shoot that is how you will react. I like to practice moving and shooting at the same time and in a fighting stance even when shooting competition (which is the modified Weaver for me) Ya my time may be slower but if I ever need the skills in real world I will have them

 

[U.S. Patriot]

That is why I attend the run and gun events. Especially now that we have more room to set up our course of fire. I also change up drills everytime I shoot.

 

[theblackknight]

The idea that you should develop the things people do anyway is false to anyone with more then minimal interest in training and being defense minded ie the easy target. If you are going to invest minimal to no time learning to shoot in a fight along with a shallow understanding of other ways to fight, then doing all the CFS style stuff makes a lot of sense.

But dont get all righteously indignant when those who are willing to invest more are striving up to a standard, vs. down to what most untrained people do anyways, so they can thrive and dominate a fight rather then just merely survive it. There is plenty of things that people do in sim training that they cant help, the idea that you should renforce those detrimental things is an idea that assumes you are training those who are terribly unprepared for what they are facing. Training is the act of best becoming prepared, not being better at one's level of incompetence. This whole thinking is always very beta sounding. "you cant use the slide release"" you cant do that in a fight, this is cermbat!''"youll never use the sights" vs. I can do this, so I'm going to train this, and will use it.


Unless you have some results from a state match that shows you have anything more then a non-understanding of gaming and what it does and dosent do, you should really shut up.

There is a large group of people who hold this type of belief. You will find plenty of LEO's and civilians who have been told competition is bad and believe it. Some cite the lack of tactics and others the specialized equipment. The underlying thing that I have seen is that these folks see themselves as "serious" people and competition shooters as "gamers" who are not serious. No matter how good the competition shooter is he cannot be seen as "serious" because he plays a game; he must be discounted and rejected. The most vocal of this crowd is the trainer who wants to teach them. This group is much larger than all the competitive shooters combined so there is a lot of MONEY to be made catering to them. That is why the debate rages on and the belief that competition is bad is promoted and protected. Just follow the money to find a school near you to be taught the evils of comp!

Keith Garcia



All have head and eyes up, and shoulders down.

Frank below is the only Non JSOC guy here, but was a senior trainer around Range 37.

Or This?

Of course when things like time and space dont actually terktically matter, you make can anything be better then what those gamers do.

 

[Rob377]

The tactical turtle just looks more tactical. That's why it's better. Then when you give a snazzy name like FIGHTING stance instead of shooting stance, boom. Instant ninja.

 

[esrice]

I guess I should've put my standard disclaimer up before giving my opinion on the blog post.

I don't believe "competitions will get you killed". I don't believe there is anything wrong with shooting competitions. In fact I think they are excellent skill developers.

However I believe that shooting competitively is different than shooting defensively. Not better, or worse-- different. Much in the same way that driving an IndyCar is different than driving a PSD convoy. They're both driving, and the basic mechanics are the same, but they have different goals.

I also form my opinions through my own experience and goals. I'm not a military operator, I don't work in a team, and I don't have the time and money to devote to training in all the latest high-speed door kicker tactics. The gentlemen pictured above are wonderful tacticians and shooters and have devoted their lives to teaching such things. And that's awesome. For me, I'll continue to work on tactics and techniques that best serve me, the lone gunman protecting his family on budgeted money and time. Certainly your mileage may vary.

I realize that you comp guys must get tired of hearing people beat the "competition will get you killed" drum. I get it. But I'm not one of those people. You won't ever see me poking fun at you in the Shooting Sports forum.

 

[Coach]

Stance is a luxury. This is true in competitions such as USPSA and IDPA. This is true in a fight as well. You have to be able to get hits from awkward positions. But if I have the luxury of a stance bring the gun to the eye and have a weight forward bias to the stance.

In a fight if I have both my hands on the gun I am shooting and likely little else. Perhaps I am back-peddling and getting some distance but shooting is the emphasis. My "fighting" is being accomplished by shooting.

 

[Rob377]

You've totally got to protect your ears with your shoulders, because your shoulders are bullet proof and you ears aren't. And we all know how bad guys like to shoot for the ears, those sneaky bastards.

Peripheral vision and mobility are all over-rated anyway. They're certainly not worth the trade-off in sheer tactical appearance. Same thing goes for being able to rapidly transition. Who needs that? Fighters are so awesome they don't have to worry about engaging the next target as quickly as possible. Because tactical.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Thanks, this was an interesting read. I had never paid a whole lot of attention to how much my head was dipping or my shoulders coming up, so I went and looked at some photos of me shooting.

It would appear I'm not "turtle-ing" very much:

In that photo I'm walking forward while putting two rounds on 3 steels.

Looks like I'm more inline with this fellow that BlackKnight posted:

I wonder if this is because the range staff is constantly encouraging us to look around while shooting and it became natural, or if it's been the way I've shot since I got out of Weaver shooting.

Now I wish I had some photos running a rifle course to compare.

 

[theblackknight]

Stance is a luxury. This is true in competitions such as USPSA and IDPA. This is true in a fight as well. You have to be able to get hits from awkward positions. But if I have the luxury of a stance bring the gun to the eye and have a weight forward bias to the stance.

In a fight if I have both my hands on the gun I am shooting and likely little else. Perhaps I am back-peddling and getting some distance but shooting is the emphasis. My "fighting" is being accomplished by shooting.

This is pretty much it. If you have chosen to be standing up and have went to full extension, then you best be seeing and then hitting. The stance pictured above is the best for doing that and still keep what little situational awareness you have in the middle of all this. Proper firearms control is best done thru the forearms and wrist lock.

Now if you decided to shoot from guarded retension , there is a reason for this and now that is completely different. You will draw and stance different, and it's most certainly ok, even optimal, to train each with it's most effective stance. Decide to train it, so when you decide to use it, it's as best a possible.

 

[David Rose]

I've met Caleb, listened to his podcast and read a few of his articles. He seems like a nice enough guy, but I wouldn't consider him an expert on competition or defensive shooting. When he tries to mash them together it's like fingernails on a chalk board. I just got back from team teaching a 3 day CFS/APH with the crazy "dynamic critical incident" guy so I have a lot of work to catch up on. When I get caught up I'll dissect the errors in logic and understanding that compose the blog post in question.

Mr. Knight,
Again, have you read the book? Have you taken the class?

 

[cedartop]

.

Mr. Knight,
Again, have you read the book? Have you taken the class?

Definitely not him, but thought I would let you know, the book is my current Kindle read. Don't want to be accused of being close-minded.

 

[Rob377]

Does the book come with that super awesome Oral IV cellular re-hydration stuff that those guys are pushing now?

 

[rvb]

aw-gheeze, now I have to be self concious about the position of my head, too?! I couldn't even have told you which "camp" I fall in to (and I over-analize everything), so I went back and looked at a few recent match videos... It seems the more agressive/closer/faster the shooting, the closer I am to a turtle (must have learned that while living out east among all those terrapins); conversely, the more precise the shooting, the more I'm upright. It's not a head thing, it's an over-all agressiveness thing... put up a couple close targets I can shoot while at a half-sprint, and my whole "stance" will be more forward and agressive with a lowering of center of gravity; give me a couple 25yd headshots with closer no-shoots, the more upright and "ideal" my whole "stance" will be.

At no point, however, am I bringing my shoulders up, or rotating my elbows up to make my head appear/feel lower.

I found it hard to find photos or videos where I get a good profile view to really see what I'm doing. This one is is pretty good... not sure where this was taken or when (been a few yrs since I shot my open gun), but I'm relatively "turtled." The 4 pieces of brass in the air indicate I'm wailing on an array of closer targets and being pretty aggressive.

As long as the gun is between my eyes and the target, does it matter? Even the worst "turtle" pictures presented in this thread don't show the arms up so high as to block periferal vision. From a purist/shooting standpoint, if the "turtle" causes shoulder/neck tension it's going to negatively affect the shooting (perhaps why I'm more upright for apparently harder shots).

I refuse to think about (or with?) my head ever again. I have enough to worry about (and other body parts to think with).

-rvb

eta: one other note + rhetorical question. Most of my dryfire is done with a more "upright" "ideal" stance. Most of my dryfire is done to instil core capabilities (index, reloads, transitions, setting up in positions). The photo evidence shows I'm not competing like I train; so in theory the [ahem] "real world" should cause me to 1) turtle even more out of self-preservation instinct or 2) revert more to my upright training? I'm confused. (Or can I have cake and eat it, too?)

-rvb

 

[esrice]

I went back and looked at a few recent match videos... It seems the more agressive/closer/faster the shooting, the closer I am to a turtle

Thanks for sharing your experience with us rvb.

 

[cedartop]

rvb, I would say that makes a whole lot of sense.

 

[David Rose]

On the competition side Ryan is dead on, and on the defensive side there are a lot more parallels than some might think. The blog post in question just picked all the wrong ones. Video is a lot more usefull than still photography for learning these lessons.

 

[rvb]

On the competition side Ryan is dead on

On the non-competition side, is there somewhere other than motivation (speed on timer vs fear for life) where I'm off?

-rvb

 

[theblackknight]

Mr. Knight,
Again, have you read the book? Have you taken the class?

Absolutely not, why would I pay or even devote time to something I cant see as being benificial? I've been subjected to enough of Rob's stuff to know I don't want to waste the money. I have factory ammo that has had SouthNarc's name on it for a while now. Thats my next stop when I can manage it. I do not have the resources to just fly out to classes every other week like some people,and certainly dont have the $$ to "try" something out .

 

[Manatee]

I've found that one of the only things critical about head position (whether it be competition or combat) is "where your head is at" and I'm not talking physically. The mental mindset is the most important.

However, there is some merit to not putting your head above a barrier when receiving automatic fire.....