Creating Lots?

[Topher Durden]

It was recommended to me that when setting up to reload match grade rifle rounds(308 win, for now) that I should sort bullets and brass into different lots. I think I understand that this is sorting them into groups that have similar weights. What is a standard deviation that I might start at to determine the different lots? Does it have more to do with length, or am I so far off I need somebody to pull my head out of my @$$? What do I gain by doing this?

What Power would I find the most success with for reloading my 308? the better question is, when I am testing the different powders, how do I know which one is giving me better results? How can I measure success when it comes to reloading for my rifle?

 

[Topher Durden]

SERIOUSLY!!!???? Has nobody heard of this? I got this advice on this forum!

 

[ghostdncr]

Producing match grade ammo for your .308 is essentially an exercise in eliminating or acutely limiting ALL the variables involved in making the shot. Some folks settle for a lot more deviation than others. If I was loading ammo to shoot 2L bottles at 400 yards and impress my friends I wouldn't even weigh my powder charges individually, instead trusting my powder measure to be close enough (after confirming its repeatability, of course). I wouldn't bother sorting that box of 168gr SMK's by weight, nor would I do anything beyond basic prep to my brass. Load it up using a little extra care and get on with it. It'll probably be plenty accurate.

Now, loading ammo to shoot at a five gallon bucket at 1000 yards is gonna be dramatically more involved, if you have any hope of success. When I was doing this, the SMK's were grouped +/- .5 grains and brass was grouped +/- 1.0 grain. Powder charges were weighed individually, adjusted to +/- 0.0 with a trickler. Brass was fire formed and neck sized only, primer pockets uniformed, trimmed to OAL +/-.001" and balanced so the thickest part of the brass always rode at six o'clock when chambered. Basically, each process I performed was as identical as I could possibly make it, no matter how insignificant that process might have appeared. If I took a drink of coffee after the fifth pull of a handle, I took a drink after the tenth, fifteenth, twentieth, and so on. Yeah, it gets kinda ridiculous. Keep reminding yourself that you have no one to blame but yourself.

Powder of choice will involve the tastes of your individual rifle. My rifle may be stupid accurate with BLC2 while yours would have trouble hitting a car at 400 yards with it. Try several powders that loading data shows to be good choices for your cartridge and bullet weight. I would typically load up ten rounds each in one grain increments from 10% above the starting load to 10% under maximum. Shooting these sequentially for group will typically show your ten shot group size shrink as the powder charge increases, then it will suddenly start opening back up. The powder charge that produces the smallest group for that powder type is your keeper. Now move on to the next powder and repeat. If you're both lucky and persistent, you'll find a combination that allows you to drive ten shots through a nickel at 100 yards. When this happens, get to work on that CBS target series and we can start talking about mathematics and physics and how they have to be manipulated to reach on out there...

 

[flashpuppy]

Ahh.... The fresh scent of inexperience. I do not mean that to sound condescending.

Sir, there is a lot more than sorting to making "match grade" ammo. There is so much beyond this I don't even know where to start.

How do you measure the success? With a tape measure to start and calipers when you're done.

You need a hands-on mentor.

 

[RSW]

How do you measure the success? With a tape measure to start and calipers when you're done.

 

[Topher Durden]

thanks very much ghostdncr for the explanation as well as the suggestion in my previous post. That is exactly the kind of information I was looking for!
"Tape Measure to start and calipers when you're done!" I am proud to say I have 2 tape measures! I have a very long way to go before i'm developing anything "match grade" or shooting anything at "real" distance, but it is nice to have "directions" to help me get to my "destination". I plan on being bad at this. If I got behind a rifle and inserted my own loads and starting pinging at 1000 yards on day one then I would be very disappointed. I don't want to do this because it is easy, but because it is hard.

Thanks again for the input and support. I look forward to shooting in Fort wayne and at Atturbery this season. Hope to meet you gentlemen there.

 

[whippo]

Please don't be bad at reloading its dangerous for more than just you

 

[BKExpress]

I have weighed bullets and brass. I have segregated by weight after loading as well. With that being said, when you use quality components in my opinion it probably less important. Using Lapua brass, Sierra SMK's or Lapua projectiles I've had great results without having to weigh everything before reloading. I am a Redding die fanatic and almost exclusively use them. I have rifles that consistently shoot 1/3 MOA on average with my hand loads.

Now, others will tell you to weigh everything and that I'm lying about 1/3 MOA. If you want to have great results downrange start with a great press, dies, brass, projectiles, powder and primers.

.308
Lapua or Winchester brass (I prefer Lapua, but I have had excellent results with Winchester)
Sierra 168 grain or 175 grain SMK's (I prefer 175 grains...I mean my gun prefers 175 grain)
Federal Gold Medal Match Primers
Varget powder (start low and go slow)

Let me know if you need any help.

 

[ghostdncr]

If you want to have great results downrange start with a great press, dies, brass, projectiles, powder and primers.

^^This^^

Eliminate as many variables as you possibly can! Several of the guys who helped me figure this out reloaded using the old Sinclair arbor presses. Quite a bit removed from your average reloading press, but they do a superb job of producing axially aligned ammo with minimum runout. Redding makes great dies, too. I won't say you can't shoot at 1k using Lee dies, but it will be a LOT easier using the Redding dies.

 

[BKExpress]

Exactly! Take your time and create a "wish list" of quality tools. There is a big difference between presses and dies. When you're trying to shoot sub MOA at 500 - 1000 you will see will see a big difference.

 

[Broom_jm]

I am doing all the same things as BKExpress, but with Winchester brass, A-Max bullets, a Rock-Chucker press and RCBS dies. I've only tested at 300 yards so far, but still under an inch at that range.

For the very best in long-range accuracy, brass will be painstakingly prepped, and sorting of both brass and bullets will be of at least some benefit. The thing to understand is that as you go from small groups to tiny groups, it takes extreme measures to see actual improvement. Weight-sorting brass and bullets is just one of many extreme measures that have been shown to improve accuracy, if only marginally.

 

[1988-4551]

When I first started my first lot was LC 72 30-06 brass loaded for mule deer if I recall. Didnt weigh or measure, now I'm a bit more detail oriented in it. YMMV

 

[flashpuppy]

Also, another point to touch on is the importance of not jus weight, it volume of cases. Brass can due distributed in different areas and two similar weighted pieces can have different volumes. Different volume = different pressure = different ballistics. With a HP bullet, meplat uniforming is another thing one needs to take into consideration. Uniformity is what makes great ammo. If you know that each round will do exactly the same as the one before, it makes the adjustments needed to shot placement much easier to predict.

 

[85t5mcss]

Since I am in the beginning stages as well I have found an enormous amount of info that goes into accuracy.

Brass weight and concentricity
Bullet weight, concentricity and ogive
Primer
Barrel length, twist and crown
Powder burn rate and volume
OAL and fire formed
Dies and press
Shooter and trigger

since I'll be shooting 500 yards max I'm not getting into weighing each bullet and brass. I'll be using Hornady, Remington or Lapua brass and figuring out which powder the rifle likes and then adjusting length to the chamber. Starting with BL-C2 and XBR8208 along with 168gr AMax and SMK. 26" barrel with 1 in 12" twist. I expect a long process over this summer but I also like the challenge to find the "perfect" load for my wants and needs. Who knows? Maybe I'll get into it more and want the extra accuracy that the "match" ammo is gong to require.

 

[BKExpress]

Since I am in the beginning stages as well I have found an enormous amount of info that goes into accuracy.

Brass weight and concentricity
Bullet weight, concentricity and ogive
Primer
Barrel length, twist and crown
Powder burn rate and volume
OAL and fire formed
Dies and press
Shooter and trigger

since I'll be shooting 500 yards max I'm not getting into weighing each bullet and brass. I'll be using Hornady, Remington or Lapua brass and figuring out which powder the rifle likes and then adjusting length to the chamber. Starting with BL-C2 and XBR8208 along with 168gr AMax and SMK. 26" barrel with 1 in 12" twist. I expect a long process over this summer but I also like the challenge to find the "perfect" load for my wants and needs. Who knows? Maybe I'll get into it more and want the extra accuracy that the "match" ammo is gong to require.

It's really not that long of a process. Work up some test loads and go shoot. Analyze the data and work up another group of test loads. Go shoot and analyze that group of test loads. You can often find a highly effective load that quickly. Sometimes it takes another step or two, but don't feel like you're going to spend a big part of your summer figuring it out. With that being said, working up a load is a lot of fun to me and very rewarding.

 

[BKExpress]

Allow me to add. I will start testing powder and bullets first then primers. I then transition to seating depth. I've had loads I knew would shoot before testing that were in a group of test loads, but I did the full workup anyway. It's a fun process and great for those that enjoy the analytics of shooting.

 

[Broom_jm]

Since I am in the beginning stages as well I have found an enormous amount of info that goes into accuracy.

Brass weight and concentricity
Bullet weight, concentricity and ogive
Primer
Barrel length, twist and crown
Powder burn rate and volume
OAL and fire formed
Dies and press
Shooter and trigger

since I'll be shooting 500 yards max I'm not getting into weighing each bullet and brass. I'll be using Hornady, Remington or Lapua brass and figuring out which powder the rifle likes and then adjusting length to the chamber. Starting with BL-C2 and XBR8208 along with 168gr AMax and SMK. 26" barrel with 1 in 12" twist. I expect a long process over this summer but I also like the challenge to find the "perfect" load for my wants and needs. Who knows? Maybe I'll get into it more and want the extra accuracy that the "match" ammo is gong to require.

I think that everything you listed factors into it, but highlighted in bold the most important factors that influence accuracy. Having everything concentric, from the chamber, to the body of the case, the neck, the bullet, the throat and the bore, is what makes today's guns so much more accurate, on average, than decades ago. Some of today's brass is NOT very concentric, though. I use a Lee 3-jaw chuck and a cordless drill to check for badly out-of-round brass...makes it easy. Fortunately, today's better bullets are amazingly concentric and have very consistent weight and mass. Your chamber, barrel, rifling and crown are likely to be fine and those are things you can't easily do much about...you work with what's there, initially.

I highlighted the powder volume because it is more important than weight; one being a reflection of the other, but not in the order most folks presume. When you find the right volume for your particular component combination, it is possible to load surprisingly accurate ammunition w/o needing to weigh every single charge. For the most accurate match ammo, I think most will still weigh each charge, but some shooters have found it isn't always necessary.

Speaking of shooters: This is where accuracy begins (you can't even develop a great load if you can't shoot) and ends. No amount of load development, pillar bedding, or "tactical" anything is going to make up for a poor shooter. If you want to shoot well at 500 with your 308, be ready to spend a lot of time behind the trigger. (Hi-Jack Alert!) I used to shoot 5-10 rounds of 22 for every round of hi-power ammo I shot, but all the hoarders and gougers are making that a lot more difficult.