So since I'm new to this site I thought I'd introduce myself. My name is Aaron. I'm new here but not exactly new to the firearms world. I learned the basics of shooting when I was 7. I've been carrying and training since I was 19, I've received limited training from military sources, advanced training from private/professional sources, and personal instruction from combat veterans.
I work in an ER in downtown Indy doing diagnostic work on all of the patients that come in. Thus, I get to see my fair share of gun and knife wounds, and, odd duck that I am, I often take note on what caliber the patient was hit by, where it hit him, etc. It gives me a lot of real life examples to deal with when considering the caliber vs. bullet placement concept. Today I thought I might share with you guys a few stories relating what we in the medical community experience concerning gunshot wounds and how effective each caliber is. Hopefully these stories will shed some light on the real world effectiveness of different cartridges beyond idealized ballistic gel tests. Obviously my observations cannot be regarded as "scientific". My sample sizes aren't big enough. I can only take what I see on a regular basis, and try to give a story or two that sums up the experiences I have in general.
The first story I wanted to share involved a .32 ACP. I'm sort of known as the "gun guy" in my ER, as I have taught several nurses and clinical scientists there how to shoot and word travels fast when you work so closely together. Anyway, one night we got a GSW, and they asked me to come over and take a look at it. When the bullet was extracted, I could tell right away that it was a .32 ACP. The round hadn't even deformed before coming to a stop between the radius and ulna. (Granted it was a FMJ) The bones weren't even fractured. Now I cannot tell you for certain at what range the round was fired because our patients are usually not truthful about how the events surrounding their being shot transpired. (Judging by the claims of our patients, Indianapolis must be the "random shooting" capital of the world. lol) That being said, I very much doubt that this young man was hit in the forearm at 25 yards whilst jogging on the other side of the street. His injury suggested he had placed his arm up in front of him to shield himself, probably at close range, and was struck in the forearm with a .32 that failed to penetrate.
What I took away: If you or your woman (I say woman because it's normally women I know who decide they want to carry a pistol but then settle on a "cut little gun") decide to carry a .32, you have to realize ahead of time that you absolutely must train to the point where you can always deliver a shot to the ocular-cranial cavity under pressure. (I.e. the area between the mustache line and the eyebrows.) Personally, if I were to carry a round that light I would carry a .22. They are far easier to shoot, and I will be far more likely to deliver that necessary face shot. (Notice that I didn't call it a "head shot", more on that later.) I choose to carry a round much larger than that because I'm too lazy to train to the point where I can instantly deliver face shots with every shot. Torsos are much easier for bums like me to hit.
The next story happened about a year ago. There was a shooting in the courtyard of an apartment complex and our patient was struck five times in the torso. When I saw the info that was sent by the ambulance, I assumed we were in for a lot of work on the guy. Honestly, I figured that five hits in the torso from anything would be bad news bears. How couldn't it be? When the patient arrived he was sitting up in the gurney and talking to us! It turns out he had been shot by a .380. Again the range wasn't beyond normal gunfight distance, yet the rounds failed to penetrate far enough to reach vital organs. We immediately downgraded him to a trauma 2.
I tell you this story because in my life-long firearms journey, I have oft heard men expound upon the virtues of the .380 round. "It's almost a 9mm!" is the most common phrase I hear. "It's accurate and easy to conceal!" and on and on it goes, as if the round was comparable to a 9mm.
Guys. It's all bullcrap. I have seen patients hit by a .380, and honestly, I'm totally underwhelmed. If you're right on top of the guy, the .380 might have enough penetration to stop him, but don't count on it being anything more than an in-your-face-belly-gun. Furthermore, the .380 doesn't have enough power behind it to be reasonably accurate beyond 10 yards and it's quite a bit more expensive than the 9mm. Less power, less accurate, more expensive. Not a great deal if you ask me. If you want a pocket gun Ruger and Kahr make great little 9mms that are actually easier on your hands that common .380s.
That being said a .380 is better than no gun at all. Just please be sure you train with it constantly if you decide it is the caliber for you. Personally, after these experiences, I ditched the .380 round completely.
The final story I want to relate happened about two months ago. Once again I cannot tell you for certain at what range this occurred because again I'm fairly certain the patient was lying to us about how it happened. They tend to do that when there are cops standing there. ("Honestly officer! I wuz just walkn' down the street mind'n my own biznass!") Anyway the man got caught up in a shoot out and took a round of unknown caliber to the face. We were all amazed at his luck. The round struck right at the top of the mustache line. One centimeter higher and it would have likely ricocheted into his ocular-cranial cavity, and it would have been lights outs for him. Instead his mandible stopped the bullet dead in its tracks, where it then floated around under his skin.
What I took away: Head shots are not good enough, especially when using a pistol. You must land the shot between the mustache and the eyebrows. Anywhere else and you're just kidding yourself about the certain effectiveness of your shot. I've even seen people try to use 9mm rounds to commit suicide, fail to hit the brain stem, and live through it. One will even make a recovery. Even if using a high powered rifle, if you don't strike the brain stem they may not die instantly. Instead their death throws could cause them to jerk down on their own trigger before checking out.
I have other stories, but honestly they're not that interesting. The .38 specials and 9mms seem to stop people, though it takes a well placed hit or several torso hits to kill them outright. We've had several experiences of guys trying to rape a woman and taking a round to the chest instead. Perhaps I've become calloused, but inwardly I fine some small satisfaction in that. I have little mercy for such men. I have no experiences with .40s and .45s. People who take shots with these calibers to vital areas don't come to us. They go to the morgue. I'm sure many of them survive long enough to do more damage before they go down. However by the time the ambulance pulls into the bay a lot of time has gone by and they've probably bled out by then. If someone hit in a non-vital area with a .40 or .45 has come in, I either wasn't there or didn't take notice (which is probably the case). Minor hits don't stay in my memory. Everyone knows minor hits don't do you any good anyways no matter what handgun you're using.
One fact that might surprise you: Often clinical staff think that .22s are the deadliest bullets ever. This is due to the fact that men take hits to vital areas, come in with nasty internal leaks, and bleed out. As an added bonus, .22s are small enough to drift around and bury themselves into an artery which then sucks the round downstream until it gets caught somewhere and causes an embolism. (Fun huh?) In contrast, men hit with major calibers who make it to the ER have normally been hit in a non-vital area and thus live.
In conclusion, I would take two things away from this. First, carry the biggest round out of the biggest gun you can handle, and try not to use less than a .38 special/9mm. Humans are actually pretty hard to bring down. Second, don’t be afraid to take a bullet resisting criminals. Chances are, even if he gets the drop on you, he won’t hit you. If you are hit, you have an excellent chance of survival. If you die, it’s better than dying like a sheep after watching them rape and murder your family. Draw your weapon and take them down!
What do you consider to be your minimum caliber?
I work in an ER in downtown Indy doing diagnostic work on all of the patients that come in. Thus, I get to see my fair share of gun and knife wounds, and, odd duck that I am, I often take note on what caliber the patient was hit by, where it hit him, etc. It gives me a lot of real life examples to deal with when considering the caliber vs. bullet placement concept. Today I thought I might share with you guys a few stories relating what we in the medical community experience concerning gunshot wounds and how effective each caliber is. Hopefully these stories will shed some light on the real world effectiveness of different cartridges beyond idealized ballistic gel tests. Obviously my observations cannot be regarded as "scientific". My sample sizes aren't big enough. I can only take what I see on a regular basis, and try to give a story or two that sums up the experiences I have in general.
The first story I wanted to share involved a .32 ACP. I'm sort of known as the "gun guy" in my ER, as I have taught several nurses and clinical scientists there how to shoot and word travels fast when you work so closely together. Anyway, one night we got a GSW, and they asked me to come over and take a look at it. When the bullet was extracted, I could tell right away that it was a .32 ACP. The round hadn't even deformed before coming to a stop between the radius and ulna. (Granted it was a FMJ) The bones weren't even fractured. Now I cannot tell you for certain at what range the round was fired because our patients are usually not truthful about how the events surrounding their being shot transpired. (Judging by the claims of our patients, Indianapolis must be the "random shooting" capital of the world. lol) That being said, I very much doubt that this young man was hit in the forearm at 25 yards whilst jogging on the other side of the street. His injury suggested he had placed his arm up in front of him to shield himself, probably at close range, and was struck in the forearm with a .32 that failed to penetrate.
What I took away: If you or your woman (I say woman because it's normally women I know who decide they want to carry a pistol but then settle on a "cut little gun") decide to carry a .32, you have to realize ahead of time that you absolutely must train to the point where you can always deliver a shot to the ocular-cranial cavity under pressure. (I.e. the area between the mustache line and the eyebrows.) Personally, if I were to carry a round that light I would carry a .22. They are far easier to shoot, and I will be far more likely to deliver that necessary face shot. (Notice that I didn't call it a "head shot", more on that later.) I choose to carry a round much larger than that because I'm too lazy to train to the point where I can instantly deliver face shots with every shot. Torsos are much easier for bums like me to hit.
The next story happened about a year ago. There was a shooting in the courtyard of an apartment complex and our patient was struck five times in the torso. When I saw the info that was sent by the ambulance, I assumed we were in for a lot of work on the guy. Honestly, I figured that five hits in the torso from anything would be bad news bears. How couldn't it be? When the patient arrived he was sitting up in the gurney and talking to us! It turns out he had been shot by a .380. Again the range wasn't beyond normal gunfight distance, yet the rounds failed to penetrate far enough to reach vital organs. We immediately downgraded him to a trauma 2.
I tell you this story because in my life-long firearms journey, I have oft heard men expound upon the virtues of the .380 round. "It's almost a 9mm!" is the most common phrase I hear. "It's accurate and easy to conceal!" and on and on it goes, as if the round was comparable to a 9mm.
Guys. It's all bullcrap. I have seen patients hit by a .380, and honestly, I'm totally underwhelmed. If you're right on top of the guy, the .380 might have enough penetration to stop him, but don't count on it being anything more than an in-your-face-belly-gun. Furthermore, the .380 doesn't have enough power behind it to be reasonably accurate beyond 10 yards and it's quite a bit more expensive than the 9mm. Less power, less accurate, more expensive. Not a great deal if you ask me. If you want a pocket gun Ruger and Kahr make great little 9mms that are actually easier on your hands that common .380s.
That being said a .380 is better than no gun at all. Just please be sure you train with it constantly if you decide it is the caliber for you. Personally, after these experiences, I ditched the .380 round completely.
The final story I want to relate happened about two months ago. Once again I cannot tell you for certain at what range this occurred because again I'm fairly certain the patient was lying to us about how it happened. They tend to do that when there are cops standing there. ("Honestly officer! I wuz just walkn' down the street mind'n my own biznass!") Anyway the man got caught up in a shoot out and took a round of unknown caliber to the face. We were all amazed at his luck. The round struck right at the top of the mustache line. One centimeter higher and it would have likely ricocheted into his ocular-cranial cavity, and it would have been lights outs for him. Instead his mandible stopped the bullet dead in its tracks, where it then floated around under his skin.
What I took away: Head shots are not good enough, especially when using a pistol. You must land the shot between the mustache and the eyebrows. Anywhere else and you're just kidding yourself about the certain effectiveness of your shot. I've even seen people try to use 9mm rounds to commit suicide, fail to hit the brain stem, and live through it. One will even make a recovery. Even if using a high powered rifle, if you don't strike the brain stem they may not die instantly. Instead their death throws could cause them to jerk down on their own trigger before checking out.
I have other stories, but honestly they're not that interesting. The .38 specials and 9mms seem to stop people, though it takes a well placed hit or several torso hits to kill them outright. We've had several experiences of guys trying to rape a woman and taking a round to the chest instead. Perhaps I've become calloused, but inwardly I fine some small satisfaction in that. I have little mercy for such men. I have no experiences with .40s and .45s. People who take shots with these calibers to vital areas don't come to us. They go to the morgue. I'm sure many of them survive long enough to do more damage before they go down. However by the time the ambulance pulls into the bay a lot of time has gone by and they've probably bled out by then. If someone hit in a non-vital area with a .40 or .45 has come in, I either wasn't there or didn't take notice (which is probably the case). Minor hits don't stay in my memory. Everyone knows minor hits don't do you any good anyways no matter what handgun you're using.
One fact that might surprise you: Often clinical staff think that .22s are the deadliest bullets ever. This is due to the fact that men take hits to vital areas, come in with nasty internal leaks, and bleed out. As an added bonus, .22s are small enough to drift around and bury themselves into an artery which then sucks the round downstream until it gets caught somewhere and causes an embolism. (Fun huh?) In contrast, men hit with major calibers who make it to the ER have normally been hit in a non-vital area and thus live.
In conclusion, I would take two things away from this. First, carry the biggest round out of the biggest gun you can handle, and try not to use less than a .38 special/9mm. Humans are actually pretty hard to bring down. Second, don’t be afraid to take a bullet resisting criminals. Chances are, even if he gets the drop on you, he won’t hit you. If you are hit, you have an excellent chance of survival. If you die, it’s better than dying like a sheep after watching them rape and murder your family. Draw your weapon and take them down!
What do you consider to be your minimum caliber?
