Coronovirus IV

[ArcadiaGP]

US death toll passes 90,000

 

[jedi]

US death toll passes 90,000

90,000 / 331,000,000 = 0.02% of 2020 usa population

Is this what we have all be told to hide from?

 

[Ingomike]

There are a lot of things that can be done by a government to help prevent certain bad outcomes. Just look at Singapore: almost no crime. Of course, if you dare speak publicly against the government or get caught with chewing gum, you get caned. One who claims to be a libertarian ought to understand that a line exists, and that being one one side of the line is right, and the other is wrong - regardless of the ostensibly good deeds the government could accomplish while on the wrong side of the line.



Those who are actually positive can, under constitutional constraints on government and through due process, can be prevented by the government from "fling[ing] germs" around in public. Everyone else, however, enjoys the presumption of not being infected, thanks to that same, constitutionally protected due process. Thus, without some evidence constituting probable cause of posing a risk of infection, the government has no authority to constrain someone from "fling[ing] germs past their nose", even in public.



Where some disagree is that your viewpoint seems to imply that the personal rights of some extend beyond their own noses, while the personal rights of others do not - that some people have personal rights to take themselves and their noses anywhere they please in public, free from the risk of exposure to harm, while other people do not have personal rights to take themselves and their noses those same places in public, merely on the chance, absent any evidence whatsoever, that they might pose some degree of risk to others.



Absence or presence of testing has nothing at all to do with the spread of, and harm caused by, this virus. Testing merely provides us with information about that spread.

And, again, "flatten the curve" was always about spreading the same number of cases, and deaths, across a greater length of time, so as not to overwhelm healthcare system capacity. The revision of history is coming from those who now claim that "flatten the curve" was/is intended to reduce overall infections and deaths.



Your error is in not properly bounding the extent/limits of personal rights. Where does one person's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness end, and another's begin, in the context of a pandemic? It appears that you are taking the position that, if no one can safely go outside, then no one at all can go outside - if no one can work, buy groceries, or sit on the beach safely, then no one can work, buy groceries, or sit on the beach.

I contend that such a position is not one founded on the concept of individual liberty.



Use of a term such as "deniers" is ad hominem, intended to dismiss a viewpoint not on its merits but by associating its proponents with other forms of denial (the most insidious of which is Holocaust denial).



Who, exactly, is espousing such a view? Is that a legitimate view, much less a mainstream view? Or is it merely a straw man?

Max rep sent...

 

[actaeon277]

Remember how all the quarantine "scofflaws" were "Trumpsters", or right wing nut jobs??

[video=youtube;IrjHT5O-En4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrjHT5O-En4[/video]

 

[nonobaddog]

And, again, "flatten the curve" was always about spreading the same number of cases, and deaths, across a greater length of time, so as not to overwhelm healthcare system capacity. The revision of history is coming from those who now claim that "flatten the curve" was/is intended to reduce overall infections and deaths.

I have to call BS on this one. It was not always what you said.
Your version of history is based on your assumption that flattening the curve spreads the same number of cases and deaths.
That is not the same history as many others. Your assumption was never made by many others. You claim people are revising history but that is not the case. Perhaps you are just now becoming aware of the fact that others always knew flattening the curve would save lives.

I think it is quite obvious that flattening the curve has and will save lives.
First of it was always known that overwhelming the medical system would cost lives as some people would not even receive treatment - as in Italy and New York.
Secondly it gives time for treatment to be refined - people are not automatically being killed by ventilators anymore. The death rate is reducing with time even for people with severe symptoms.
Third it gives time for new or old drugs to be found that fight the infection - several gave been written up and some have been posted in this thread.
Fourth it gives time for new or old drugs to be found that may result in preventing infections in the first place.
Fifth it gives time for these drugs to be manufactured and distributed.

The whole idea that flattening the curve always meant the identical number of cases and deaths is preposterous to me. It just don't make sense.

 

[Ingomike]

I have to call BS on this one. It was not always what you said.
Your version of history is based on your assumption that flattening the curve spreads the same number of cases and deaths.
That is not the same history as many others. Your assumption was never made by many others. You claim people are revising history but that is not the case. Perhaps you are just now becoming aware of the fact that others always knew flattening the curve would save lives.

I think it is quite obvious that flattening the curve has and will save lives.
First of it was always known that overwhelming the medical system would cost lives as some people would not even receive treatment - as in Italy and New York.
Secondly it gives time for treatment to be refined - people are not automatically being killed by ventilators anymore. The death rate is reducing with time even for people with severe symptoms.
Third it gives time for new or old drugs to be found that fight the infection - several gave been written up and some have been posted in this thread.
Fourth it gives time for new or old drugs to be found that may result in preventing infections in the first place.
Fifth it gives time for these drugs to be manufactured and distributed.

The whole idea that flattening the curve always meant the identical number of cases and deaths is preposterous to me. It just don't make sense.

So you are saying with this post that the death numbers are additionally inflated by not knowing how to deal with the virus. Another reason to just open up the country...

 

[Tombs]

A few weeks ago I said the US response was no better than a third world country. Here are some third world countries that did better than we did. A lot of it was about early testing and contact tracing.


I'm a libertarian and don't take insults to freedom lightly. Too many people are forgetting that defending life is also part of defending freedom. You can't go around randomly firing bullets into a crowd, (regardless of your good intentions) and similarly you don't have a right to fling germs past the end of your nose.


I get people mad at me for simply saying that personal rights conflict in a disease outbreak. I don't believe I've ever even taken a position on exactly what should be done, or what should be closed. I've just said I understand why we had some rapid, seemingly extreme reactions when we did not have testing in place.


Some of the people who didn't like closures denied we had a problem with lack of testing. They first said that not many people would die. Now they are suggesting the result will be the same deaths regardless of what we do or don't do.
I don't like closures
I don't like limiting people's activities and the potential lack of privacy that comes with thorough contact tracing
I also think government has a role in disease outbreaks where these personal rights truly conflict.
I think the economic effect is from the pandemic, not just from any government decisions.


Some deniers are going so far as to be angry about being asked to wear a mask in a business. That, to me, seems like people who just don't want to help at all and don't want to hear this is a serious problem.


What's the point of discussing any measures if the response is akin to "we should act like everything is normal".

And people who are scared of getting sick can mail order their groceries or anything they need, while the rest of us who couldn't care less about it, can carry on our daily lives.

You may have a point if it wasn't possible to obtain goods, or have a friend get them for you.

Comparing it to firing a gun wildly is ridiculous. You're implying that everyone in society, at all times, is making someone else sick, as some sort of violation of their rights. Microbes exist, viruses, parasites, all manner of horrible infectious things. Covid-19 did not introduce the concept that these things exist. You're always spewing these things out, all of the time. People with a healthy immune system will generally never have a problem from these particles. People with a compromised immune system and no medical treatment could come down sick from it at any time, and die.

Your argument would need to apply at all times, and not just during a pandemic, to be logically consistent.

If anything, all of society babying its immune systems is going to result in a large chunk of society having a weakened immune system and be opened up for this fall to really cause widespread disaster.

 

[nonobaddog]

So you are saying with this post that the death numbers are additionally inflated by not knowing how to deal with the virus. Another reason to just open up the country...

Well - what I call inflated death numbers are when people identify the cause of death as chinese virus disease when it really wasn't - in other words lying about it.
The fact that some deaths happened because of inappropriate treatment is different to me. They were doing the best they could with the knowledge available at that time.

I'm not sure if that situation actually addresses the issue of "open up the country".
In my opinion we do need to "open up the country" as fast as possible. Everybody knows now if they are in a vulnerable demographic and they need to be responsible for their own actions. We don't need anymore government overreach killing the economy. The number of deaths is not anywhere near the doomsday crisis predicted by the worst models. Yes some people will die - this is going to be true no matter what anybody or any government does.

 

[bwframe]

90,000 / 331,000,000 = 0.02% of 2020 usa population

Is this what we have all be told to hide from?

Not to mention the counting method used that counts ANY death of a person with signs of virus as a covid death whether that is what killed them or not.

 

[nonobaddog]

Not to mention the counting method used that counts ANY death of a person with signs of virus as a covid death whether that is what killed them or not.

That just isn't true either. Certainly there are some deaths that fall into that category but the cause of death is determined by the physician or in some cases by the coroner. There are roughly 1 million physicians in the US. The vast majority are not in this conspiracy theory, they are putting down the real cause of death just like they have done for their entire careers. There are a few, of course, and there are some bureaucrats in various departments of health that are overriding the real cause of death so they can count them but that does not warrant such a blanket statement that ANY death is counted wrong. The crap about people eaten by crocodiles and then counted is also just that - crap.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Just remember, all those folks preaching the gospel of mask wearing and warning of your murderous damnation if you refuse....many if not most of them don’t really believe their own preaching. If they were really true believers, they wouldn’t do stuff like this.

https://www.redstate.com/bonchie/20...sk-the-moment-she-thinks-the-cameras-are-off/

 

[Ingomike]

That just isn't true either. Certainly there are some deaths that fall into that category but the cause of death is determined by the physician or in some cases by the coroner. There are roughly 1 million physicians in the US. The vast majority are not in this conspiracy theory, they are putting down the real cause of death just like they have done for their entire careers. There are a few, of course, and there are some bureaucrats in various departments of health that are overriding the real cause of death so they can count them but that does not warrant such a blanket statement that ANY death is counted wrong. The crap about people eaten by crocodiles and then counted is also just that - crap.

Between the CDC "recommendations" on classification of death and the financial incentives to the doctors and hospitals there does not need to be a secret conspiracy, it is right in the open for all to see that will. I have seen credible explanations that upwards of 30% are overcounts...

 

[smokingman]

Hopefully some sort of anti viral will be found or work soon. Im so tired of hearing about this crap. I do have a cousin that has Covid and is doing well. He is 50 and was smoker for 25 years. He went to the hospital for some treatment and is now home with no issues. Im interested to see what they gave him.

I would still ask for Auranofin,even more so now after reading more about how it interacts with sars-cov-2

https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...oV-2-virus-in-48-hours-in-lab-conditions.aspx

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.041228v1

The new study describes a process where human cells infected with the SARS-CoV-2 were treated with auranofin. Within 24 hours of treatment, viral concentrations in cells dropped by 85 percent, and within 48 hours by 95 percent. At the same time, auranofin was not toxic to the cells used in this research.
Treatment also significantly reduced coronavirus-induced inflammation, as well as the expression of cytokines (which are signaling proteins that attract immune cells to the infection site). The latter is rather crucial since it is known that many COVID-19 patients die of a "cytokine storm" when the body's immune response gets out of control, killing, in turn, healthy tissue and causing organ failure.
"This shows that the drug not only could inhibit replication of SARS-CoV-2, mitigating the infection but also reduce the associated lung damage that often leads to severe respiratory distress and even death", explains Dr. Kumar.

 

[Ingomike]

Just remember, all those folks preaching the gospel of mask wearing and warning of your murderous damnation if you refuse....many if not most of them don’t really believe their own preaching. If they were really true believers, they wouldn’t do stuff like this.

https://www.redstate.com/bonchie/20...sk-the-moment-she-thinks-the-cameras-are-off/

This is so rampant throughout society. A neighbor went for a run today wearing his mask, he and his wife often rant about on social media about those that don't, on his way to the house he stopped to talk and pulled the mask down to do so. Classic do as I say, not as I do...

 

[dusty88]

And people who are scared of getting sick can mail order their groceries or anything they need, while the rest of us who couldn't care less about it, can carry on our daily lives.

You may have a point if it wasn't possible to obtain goods, or have a friend get them for you.

I think this is a legitimate position if and when we have enough PPE to protect healthcare workers and we have generous testing supplies (to for example test nursing home workers regularly). Indiana appears to be doing much better in both of those regards.

Comparing it to firing a gun wildly is ridiculous. You're implying that everyone in society, at all times, is making someone else sick, as some sort of violation of their rights. Microbes exist, viruses, parasites, all manner of horrible infectious things. Covid-19 did not introduce the concept that these things exist. You're always spewing these things out, all of the time. People with a healthy immune system will generally never have a problem from these particles. People with a compromised immune system and no medical treatment could come down sick from it at any time, and die.

First, I'll agree it's a less than perfect analogy. Perhaps a better analogy is something like "what if guns really did occasionally go off on their own".

As far as all the time, some people having a problem etc... that's why I make the point that personal rights can conflict. This just isn't an issue where you can focus only on one side and say the other side doesn't have a point. The difference between usual times (of a tiny # of people being sensitive to normal microbes) vs a pandemic is magnified. The opportunity to see this one coming is not typical.

I'm not arguing AGAINST the right of commerce, travel etc. I'm saying both issues are real.

 

[JettaKnight]

90,000 / 331,000,000 = 0.02% of 2020 usa population

Is this what we have all be told to hide from?

If the number of lily pads in a pond double every day, and on the 30th day the pond will be completely covered, on what day will half the pond be covered?

 

[OurDee]

If the number of lily pads in a pond double every day, and on the 30th day the pond will be completely covered, on what day will half the pond be covered?

A man can look like a savant with an easy question like that. Answer is day 29.

 

[jamil]

This is so rampant throughout society. A neighbor went for a run today wearing his mask, he and his wife often rant about on social media about those that don't, on his way to the house he stopped to talk and pulled the mask down to do so. Classic do as I say, not as I do...

Going for a run with a mask. Maybe not such a good idea. I saw a study that said long term mask wearing can cause low oxygen. And “long term“ was several hours. Don’t remember exactly. I generally wear a N95 mask when I go grocery shopping. Since I try to do shopping for a few weeks, it takes a long time. Not several hours but I’ve been in the store for at least an hour and change. It usually drains me and sometimes I get headaches. So the other day, I didn’t wear the mask because reasons, and when I was done I felt fine. No fatigue, no headache. I dunno. I think there might be something to that.

Okay. So exercising outdoors wearing a mask? Why? First, you’re probably not getting the air you need while doing aerobic exercise because it’s harder to breathe with it on. But outdoors, especially where it’s a lot easier to socially distance yourself front other people, it’s just really unlikely you’re gonna spread disease that way. I see someone wearing a mask while jogging alone, no one anywhere near them, and I just wonder why?

 

[Libertarian01]

I just discovered I have a rare symptom for Covid-19, so I need to run and get tested tomorrow.

I've had a red, annoying, itching "rash" on my toe next to my big toe on my right foot. I've had it for about two (2) weeks. It is annoying and hydrocortisone helps diminish the itching.

However, just as I was getting done doing some work I decided to check the news at the Associated Press website. I'll be darned but the cover story is on "Covid toes" which is a rare symptom of the virus. What I have on one (1) toe looks exactly like their picture.

So the calls have started. First to one of my managers to take off work tomorrow. Second to the VA (I'm covered through them) to go get my toe inspected at the nearest clinic. Third will be tomorrow to find the nearest Covid testing site and see if I can get tested.

I would have never considered an itchy foot rash to be linked to the virus but there it was. The toe symptom isn't listed on the CDC website.

Other than an annoying itching toe I feel fine. No fever, no significant cough (slight w/ allergy season), no big headaches, nada.

I've argued many of us could already have this thing and not even know it. We'll see if it hits home at a personal level.

Don't worry or concern yourselves about me. I feel just fine. I'm certain it will turn out well, come positive or negative.

Regards,

Doug

 

[jamil]

If the number of lily pads in a pond double every day, and on the 30th day the pond will be completely covered, on what day will half the pond be covered?

That analogy worked fine back in March when we had exponential growth in deaths. It was ever really doubling every day, more like every two or three days, but yeah that was exponential. It has flattened out. Maybe a lot due to social distancing, or maybe it’s seasonal. But it’s worth reminding about what the talk was then vs now. Then they were predicting millions of deaths. We’re just nowhere near that several months in. I suspect that even if we had not closed things down, the “millions” would still be overblown by a lot.

It seems to me that a cautious reopening would be wisest.