Cops sued, Mother and son shot

[Duncan]

Jacksonville cops sued after firing 42 times at carjacked mom, kids | Raw Story

42 shots .

Mother shot .

Son shot .

When carjacked .

Civil Rights lawsuit .

the-wild-bunch-1-1024.jpg (image)

 

[308jake]

Absolutely unnecessary. It sickens me to think about such abuse of power and lack of concern for innocent life. F@@k firing them. Charge them with murder.

 

[MinuteMan47]

A total disregard for public safety. They couldn't have seen a weapon since it was knocked out of his hand prior to them opening fire.

Two kids in the car, mom and son are shot!

That family narrowly escaped being murdered.

 

[Ogre]

not only should they take them to the cleaners, these cops should be under criminal investigation.

 

[MadCity Hoosier]

As written, this news story is pretty inflamatory, and it makes me pretty angry at the police's reckless regard for innocent life. I can only hope that there was more to the story and a good reason for putting the mom and kids in jeopardy (in the line of fire), but I don't know if any situation warrants shooting 42 times at a bad guy with the family in the car.

 

[Duncan]

As written, this news story is pretty inflamatory, and it makes me pretty angry at the police's reckless regard for innocent life. I can only hope that there was more to the story and a good reason for putting the mom and kids in jeopardy (in the line of fire), but I don't know if any situation warrants shooting 42 times at a bad guy with the family in the car.

MORE :

Shooting review ... no criminal wrong doing - more training needed .

Mom Sues Sheriff Over Boy's Shooting - Jacksonville News Story - WJXT Jacksonville

 

[mrjarrell]

MORE :

Shooting review ... no criminal wrong doing - more training needed .

Mom Sues Sheriff Over Boy's Shooting - Jacksonville News Story - WJXT Jacksonville

Oh. It's a learning moment and an opportunity for more training.

 

[dross]

No cops were hurt, right? Well, then, mission accomplished.

 

[MinuteMan47]

No cops were hurt, right? Well, then, mission accomplished.

Right, Officer safety was the primary concern............I would say I can't beileve it, but I can.

 

[jedi]

Does anyone know the following.

The suspect had just robbed a bank (based on the first article) so what occured there (at the bank)?
1) Did he kill anyone there?
2) Did he show his gun?
3) Did he hurt anyone?

I take it the LEOs were in pursuit of him from the bank to the wendy's.

4) Did he fire at them while this chase was going on?

I ask this becuase it bring a clearer image of what is going on surrounding the events. All of you are so quick to blast the LEOs on this one yet we don't know the frame of mind they are coming from.

It's not like the LEOs just appeared out of mid-air and started shooting at the car.

Also 42 shots sounds like a LOT but is it? That is ~ 8 to 9 shots per officer per gun.
Not sure what the LEOs were carrying probably GLOCKs and most likely anywehre from 10 to 20 rounds in a magazine? (I only have a 1911 so I'm not well versed in how much your other autos have in terms of capacity). However my point is 8 to 9 rounds is only 1/2 their magazine per officer. We all know you can fire that real quickly without too much thinking.

The Box of Truth had a test on shooting at cars (inside and outside)
The Box O' Truth - The Buick O' Truth
that gives some insight on these type of shootings.

42 shots and yet ONLY the BG died? Hum.. that is some good shooting by the LEOs I would think if they managed to not kill anyone else instead of how this article is painting them to be "gun happy".

We are so quick to read the article and arm chair quaterback in these threads.

 

[MinuteMan47]

jediagh,

While I agree it would be important to know all of the facts that happened prior to the carjacking, we disagree on one thing.

If the police were in pursuit with the BG from the bank to the Wendys then they would realize that the car was NOT his original getaway car, and they most likely would have seen the carjacking take place.

With children in the car that would have turned this into a hostage situation. I am not LEO, but I would hope that would change the ROE. I know for a fact that if it were my wife in this situation then she would be frantically SCREAMING telling them NOT to SHOOT because our child was in the car.

 

[lashicoN]

It's a shame the mother didn't have a firearm handy to defend herself, from all attackers.

What do you think would have happened if one of us "accidentally" fired on police officers 42 times? I doubt we would be around to be investigated for "failing to consider our surroundings."

When law enforcement officers primary concern is their own safety, at what point do we realize that they are doing much more harm than good?

 

[dross]

It's a shame the mother didn't have a firearm handy to defend herself, from all attackers.

What do you think would have happened if one of us "accidentally" fired on police officers 42 times? I doubt we would be around to be investigated for "failing to consider our surroundings."

When law enforcement officers primary concern is their own safety, at what point do we realize that they are doing much more harm than good?

That's a very, very interesting point. Suppose the Mother had wrestled a gun away from a BG and returned the cops' fire and killed one. Would/Should she be prosecuted for murder?

 

[MinuteMan47]

That's a very, very interesting point. Suppose the Mother had wrestled a gun away from a BG and returned the cops' fire and killed one. Would/Should she be prosecuted for murder?

More than likely, and the media would portray her as a crazed psychopath. This has always been a concern of mine. If I was being attacked I would feel obligated to defend myself no matter who it was. Let's just hope it would be caught on tape...

 

[jedi]

It's a shame the mother didn't have a firearm handy to defend herself, from all attackers.

What do you think would have happened if one of us "accidentally" fired on police officers 42 times? I doubt we would be around to be investigated for "failing to consider our surroundings."

When law enforcement officers primary concern is their own safety, at what point do we realize that they are doing much more harm than good?

Are there any handgun magazines capable of holding that many rounds?
Also note that there were 5 officers and 42 rounds fired in total so an avg of 8 to 9 shots per person.

That's a very, very interesting point. Suppose the Mother had wrestled a gun away from a BG and returned the cops' fire and killed one. Would/Should she be prosecuted for murder?

Depends on the DA and a whole lot of other things. The case can be made that she feared for her life and had bodily harm aready inflicted and her children were in danger so in that moment in time without knowing anything else she was defending herself and child.


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[dross]

Are there any handgun magazines capable of holding that many rounds?
Also note that there were 5 officers and 42 rounds fired in total so an avg of 8 to 9 shots per person.




Depends on the DA and a whole lot of other things. The case can be made that she feared for her life and had bodily harm aready inflicted and her children were in danger so in that moment in time without knowing anything else she was defending herself and child.

What's your opinion? Suppose she knew they were cops, but she was trying to kill them to keep them from killing her and her child?

 

[mrjarrell]

That's a very, very interesting point. Suppose the Mother had wrestled a gun away from a BG and returned the cops' fire and killed one. Would/Should she be prosecuted for murder?

Nope. It would be a clear cut case of self defence in a sane world.

"Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!"- Mal Reynolds

 

[jedi]

What's your opinion? Suppose she knew they were cops, but she was trying to kill them to keep them from killing her and her child?

I'm biased from the getgo because I'm a gun owner and I know that guns/ammo in real life are not the same as on TV. Also Im not an ATTY and this is not legal advise.

However based on your statement above I'll lean towards guilty of murder since you said "she was trying to kill them". In a self defense case you are NOT trying to kill the other person. Just stopping their action. Yes most of the time that may involve you killing them but your ATTY will need to frame in with the mindset of stopping the threat.

Now I imagine the ATTY will spin it and attempt to put the jurry in her shoes by doing the following:
1) You are your kids are inside the car
2) you have just been shot in the foot and your children may or may not have been shot you don't know
3) the policeman is still shooting at you from the outside
4) you have done nothing wrong and are fearing for your life
5) you can't escape (your foot is injuried)
6) you use the gun to attempt to force the police to take cover and stop shooting at you and your children

bla, bla, bla....

---
I would think that she has a good chance of being found not guilty. Add in the 42 shots as "excessive" and the fact that her 2 year old was also shot and I'm sure the jury will find her not gulity. Not sure if the DA should even press charges against her really.

 

[lashicoN]

Are there any handgun magazines capable of holding that many rounds?
Also note that there were 5 officers and 42 rounds fired in total so an avg of 8 to 9 shots per person.


Depends on the DA and a whole lot of other things. The case can be made that she feared for her life and had bodily harm aready inflicted and her children were in danger so in that moment in time without knowing anything else she was defending herself and child.

I have a PLR-16 and with a Beta-C it holds 100 rounds. I don't carry it as a self defense weapon (often ), but I wouldn't hesitate to fire back at anyone who is shooting at me, LEO or otherwise. I'm an honest person and I don't go around breaking laws, so I'm going to assume that the person shooting at me is a criminal...you know, it doesn't really matter. If someone is trying to end your life, defend yourself.

The case is very simple. A group of men (who happened to be police officers) wrongfully shot a woman and her child. She was justified in firing back, but it probably wouldn't have ended well for her and her kids.

Once again though, 42 shots fired and they hit, what, a total of three to five times? I'm not sure how many times the carjacker was hit. I believe it was mrjarrell, a while back, who suggested officers go back to the old six-shooters. I still think that is a great idea.

 

[jedi]

I'm not sure how many times the carjacker was hit. I believe it was mrjarrell, a while back, who suggested officers go back to the old six-shooters. I still think that is a great idea.

Agree sort of on the six-shooter. Me think it's a question of "markmenship" that is lacking in the country at all levels: solider, LEO and civilians.

We have gotten away from the aim and shoot to the heck lets carry 30 rounds in a magazine and hope 1 or 2 hits the target.