Civil Religious Discussions : all things Christianity II

[Firehawk]

We might not be of the same theology or have a similar worship style but we sure agree on this. Seeing those memes just made me sick. I think that’s the political discussion we’re having here, church first, Christ first, politics down the list.

I’ve had a few replies started but didn’t finish, considering what the nature of this thread is, knowing I could derail it. At the same time, I believe we are all more alike than we are different and we can handle this discussion.

I do agree with @Ziggidy with all his ‘how could you’ questions; I’ll vote for Trump but not as the savior that many equate him to be, not even as the chosen that many think he is.
If he was chosen it wouldn’t even be a race.

We’re living in the upside down.

ETA! And the youngsters know it, and want something better!

I agree 100%. My wife and I and many others in our circle call it being “kingdom minded” Christians. God is about His kingdom and His glory. Through His love, grace and mercy He invites us to be a part of it. The problem with much of “Americanized” Christianity is that many people have it reversed. Instead of being a part of God’s kingdom they expect God to be a part of their kingdom. The perspective is reversed and has lead to so much of the complacency, and justification of selfishness and sin that we see in so many churches. When we are focused on God’s kingdom it changes everything, how we look at scripture, how we treat our wives, raise our kids, view our occupation, serve our community, view politics and on and on.

I think we have a similar mind set on faith and politics. Voting matters and I see it as a sacred right as an American that I will not take for granted. But Gods kingdom comes first and regardless of who the president is God is in control and He has a plan and a purpose. I have some road time coming up later and I’ll listen to the podcast you posted.

 

[ditcherman]

Thought this was relevant to the discussion, whether it is the US or Israel.

As was mentioned in the linked sermon, the pastor said that Christ was definitely involved in politics, but not involved in partisanship.

I don’t known how we can not be partisan, if we’re going to vote, and, as Z states above, influence others for the better, as we should, but it’s the identification of the party as being equal to or superior to the faith that really sends up a red flag for me.
I can’t imagine not being partisan, but I’m not much like Jesus. Trying, but really not much like Him.
I think it involves letting go of something. And once you let go of that partisan 1st thing, and accept the peace that passes all understanding including how are we gonna get out of this mess, you’re on the path.

 

[DadSmith]

As was mentioned in the linked sermon, the pastor said that Christ was definitely involved in politics, but not involved in partisanship.

I don’t known how we can not be partisan, if we’re going to vote, and, as Z states above, influence others for the better, as we should, but it’s the identification of the party as being equal to or superior to the faith that really sends up a red flag for me.
I can’t imagine not being partisan, but I’m not much like Jesus. Trying, but really not much like Him.
I think it involves letting go of something. And once you let go of that partisan 1st thing, and accept the peace that passes all understanding including how are we gonna get out of this mess, you’re on the path.

The Bible teaches to take a stand against evil. In our country I believe as part of our mission as an ambassador of Christ we are responsible for our votes.
We are not voting for Jesus in this country, we are lucky to live in a country where we have a say in who gets elected.
We have a responsibility as Christians to see the least evil people get elected.
I also believe that at judgment God will include our voting record on what we know was right and wrong. As in if we knowingly voted in a person who is pro death, etc...
As of right now we are in a struggle to keep a crazy leftist party who wants to kill innocent babies up to and in some cases the day they are due.
This same evil party wants to mutilate children and try to change their gender.
Not all of whom we vote for are Christians, but we need to vote in ones closest to the Christian ideals.

 

[45sRfun]

Was interesting that he believes salvation depends on what you do not what you believe. That's pretty rare in America

Where was that? Are you reading between the lines? Can you quote the section that says or implies this? I am curious.

 

[45sRfun]

Are Christians "confusing the Gospel with Christian nationalism"? - The American Vision

Many Christians refuse to get involved in politics for any number of reasons. Here are some of them: Jesus didn’t get involved in politics. God’s kingdom is not of this world. We’re to render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s. We’re living in the last days. We’re just to preach the gospel...

americanvision.org

 

[foszoe]

As was mentioned in the linked sermon, the pastor said that Christ was definitely involved in politics, but not involved in partisanship.

I don’t known how we can not be partisan, if we’re going to vote, and, as Z states above, influence others for the better, as we should, but it’s the identification of the party as being equal to or superior to the faith that really sends up a red flag for me.
I can’t imagine not being partisan, but I’m not much like Jesus. Trying, but really not much like Him.
I think it involves letting go of something. And once you let go of that partisan 1st thing, and accept the peace that passes all understanding including how are we gonna get out of this mess, you’re on the path.

I have assumed you are laity. Thr quote was speaking of clergy. In your video, I thought i heard him mentioning clergy that condemned Clinton but who were supporting Trump.

You and I can join political parties. Clergy can vote They should preach the gospel from the pulpit. They should condemn sin, but they shouldn't say things equating a politician with a savior.

If I heard my presbyter endorse Trump during the homily in the middle of the church, I would definitely corner him later. I know who he favors and will most likely vote for from our personal discussions. my presbyter preaches and calls out sin without ambiguity. He will name names but he doesn't use language that conflates a politician as a saint or savior

One of the most contentious conversations I have had with a cleric was when a homily was preached that basically was preaching a young earth creationist viewpoint and condemned anyone who believed in any form of evolution or otherwise as unorthodox. Orthodoxy gets confused with Catholicism because of external appearances lots of times, but there is within Orthodoxy a lot more freedom because there is no magisterium and there is no development of doctrine. Especially in such matters as this. We went at each other for lots of the same reasons I do with people on INGO. He had every right,as an Orthodox Christian to believe in Young Earth Creationism.i myself am agnostic on the matter. The Church says what I must believe...

I believe in one God, Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and all things visible and invisible.....i believe in one Lord Jesus Christ ......by whom all things were made....

That also speaks to what I am seeing appeal to young people when I spoke about bedrock. They get tired of pre, mid or post trib...will there or not be a rapture, or is this new teaching to be believed, especially when both sides are trotting out proof texts that sound convincing on their own.For me it's pretty easy. Did the early Church, when interpreting scripture, arrive at this or that conclusion? If not then I don't entertain the notion any longer. It's a matter of private opinion unless it has been condemned in the past as heretical.

Well I feel like I am rambling....

.

 

[foszoe]

Where was that? Are you reading between the lines? Can you quote the section that says or implies this? I am curious.

Could it be that we are asking the wrong question? Is the proper query not WHO is a Christian, but WHAT is a Christian. Is Christianity a label or a lifestyle?

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” —Matthew.

 

[45sRfun]

Could it be that we are asking the wrong question? Is the proper query not WHO is a Christian, but WHAT is a Christian. Is Christianity a label or a lifestyle?

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” —Matthew.

Exactly. One must believe and obey. Our salvation is purely by grace, but if our faith is real, there will be obedience. Many quote Ephesians 2:8 & 8, and fail to complete the picture with verse 10.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[foszoe]

Exactly. One must believe and obey. Our salvation is purely by grace, but if our faith is real, there will be obedience. Many quote Ephesians 2:8 & 8, and fail to complete the picture with verse 10.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If it is purely by grace , which i take to mean grace alone, then I don't believe you MUST obey. I am a both and type of person based on the words of Jesus and Paul and James and the witness of salvation history throughout the scriptures.

If you MUST obey you must do something. Your free will is never abolished God leads but you must follow, if you don't salvation can be lost.

 

[ditcherman]

Exactly. One must believe and obey. Our salvation is purely by grace, but if our faith is real, there will be obedience. Many quote Ephesians 2:8 & 8, and fail to complete the picture with verse 10.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If it is purely by grace , which i take to mean grace alone, then I don't believe you MUST obey. I am a both and type of person based on the words of Jesus and Paul and James and the witness of salvation history throughout the scriptures.

If you MUST obey you must do something. Your free will is never abolished God leads but you must follow, if you don't salvation can be lost.

Verse 10 in the translation I like to read states "For we are God's masterpiece. He had created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago." (NLT)

This is not to spark a debate about translations; nay - much worse - we can talk about predestination and free will...
OK seriously, without personally feeling the need to know the answer, I feel like there could be a balance here in the fact that we are chosen, but we also have to choose...and that the creator knows that we we choose what he knows we will choose that we will end up doing what we were created for.

Just my average joe uneducated thoughts,

 

[JettaKnight]

If it is purely by grace , which i take to mean grace alone, then I don't believe you MUST obey. I am a both and type of person based on the words of Jesus and Paul and James and the witness of salvation history throughout the scriptures.

If you MUST obey you must do something. Your free will is never abolished God leads but you must follow, if you don't salvation can be lost.

Correct. If I must obey, well, I failed that within in minutes of accepting Christ.

However, sanctification must follow acceptance. You should be struggling daily with sin and taking up your cross, otherwise there is no real repentance, and no salvation.


And to start looking at a singular event, on a singular day and determine if someone is, or isn't, a Christian is tantamount to a heresy in its own way.

 

[ditcherman]

I have assumed you are laity. Thr quote was speaking of clergy. In your video, I thought i heard him mentioning clergy that condemned Clinton but who were supporting Trump.

Not clergy, shoot fire, I'm barely even laity I'd reckon. Just the soundguy, mostly.
He was speaking to the seemingly hypocrisy of that to my memory, but I'll have to listen to it again to be sure.

You and I can join political parties. Clergy can vote They should preach the gospel from the pulpit. They should condemn sin, but they shouldn't say things equating a politician with a savior.

Your link suggested no one be partisan but especially clergy, if I understood it correctly. But we can all vote, and I agree with everything here.

If I heard my presbyter endorse Trump during the homily in the middle of the church, I would definitely corner him later. I know who he favors and will most likely vote for from our personal discussions. my presbyter preaches and calls out sin without ambiguity. He will name names but he doesn't use language that conflates a politician as a saint or savior

One of the most contentious conversations I have had with a cleric was when a homily was preached that basically was preaching a young earth creationist viewpoint and condemned anyone who believed in any form of evolution or otherwise as unorthodox. Orthodoxy gets confused with Catholicism because of external appearances lots of times, but there is within Orthodoxy a lot more freedom because there is no magisterium and there is no development of doctrine. Especially in such matters as this. We went at each other for lots of the same reasons I do with people on INGO. He had every right,as an Orthodox Christian to believe in Young Earth Creationism.i myself am agnostic on the matter. The Church says what I must believe...

I find that very interesting, kind of refreshing that there is that freedom in Orthodoxy.

I believe in one God, Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and all things visible and invisible.....i believe in one Lord Jesus Christ ......by whom all things were made....

That also speaks to what I am seeing appeal to young people when I spoke about bedrock. They get tired of pre, mid or post trib...will there or not be a rapture, or is this new teaching to be believed, especially when both sides are trotting out proof texts that sound convincing on their own.For me it's pretty easy. Did the early Church, when interpreting scripture, arrive at this or that conclusion? If not then I don't entertain the notion any longer. It's a matter of private opinion unless it has been condemned in the past as heretical.

People want what is relevant, not so concerned with what is theoretical that we can't control anyway,

Well I feel like I am rambling....

.

 

[foszoe]

And to start looking at a singular event, on a singular day and determine if someone is, or isn't, a Christian is tantamount to a heresy in its own way

Interesting to hear you speak of it this way.

Most protestant theology is a reaction to Catholicism. Yall will use the same terms with similar enough definitions while we will use the same words but mean entirely something different.

My exposure to Protestants usually has them saying I was saved on insert date here.

Orthodox won't speak in such terms.

I wrote on all this stuff extensively in the Reformation thread. So no need to rehash it here.

 

[historian]

Well...I accidentally kicked the anthill.

So...as for me, I feel that the post I started (French, Ortland, Moore, et al.) are immoral and are providing cover for people to vote for an antichrist candidate. No, Trump is not good, but if you vote for Harris, you are not Christian, as her candidacy stands against everything that Christ is for. There is a stark difference between abstaining (which you can do in good conscience), voting for Trump (are there issues, yes, but many fewer), or voting for Harris (endorsing evil, like having an abortion bus at the convention). By siding with Harris, those in leadership are standing opposed to God. Again, siding with Trump is not siding with God, but it is certainly not standing athwart all Christian values (several, but not all). That is where I call them false prophets, for they preach Christ and His Kingdom but then do everything in their power (voting and endorsing) against it.

 

[historian]

And to start looking at a singular event, on a singular day and determine if someone is, or isn't, a Christian is tantamount to a heresy in its own way.

If someone is willingly (and in some cases, gleefully) endorsing sin, does that not tell us that they are, in fact, not Christian? Something about by their deeds you shall know them...

 

[45sRfun]

If it is purely by grace , which i take to mean grace alone, then I don't believe you MUST obey. I am a both and type of person based on the words of Jesus and Paul and James and the witness of salvation history throughout the scriptures.

If you MUST obey you must do something. Your free will is never abolished God leads but you must follow, if you don't salvation can be lost.

I think the "alone" in grace alone was put in by Lutherans for emphasis and is not in the Bible. Faith is always accompanied by works. Every human being (and every government) is required to give full obedience to God in all things. Anything short of that is sin. Being saved by grace does not remove that requirement, but it also does not mean we are saved by works. Sanctification is all about obedience. Those who blatantly disobey are not saved. Remember, the Devil believes and trembles (James 2:19). The Blood of Jesus covers us from where we fall short of perfect obedience.

 

[Ziggidy]

I think the "alone" in grace alone was put in by Lutherans for emphasis and is not in the Bible. Faith is always accompanied by works. Every human being (and every government) is required to give full obedience to God in all things. Anything short of that is sin. Being saved by grace does not remove that requirement, but it also does not mean we are saved by works. Sanctification is all about obedience. Those who blatantly disobey are not saved. Remember, the Devil believes and trembles (James 2:19). The Blood of Jesus covers us from where we fall short of perfect obedience.

There is absolutely nothing you can do, nothing that will save you. If you truly accept Jesus as savior and follow him, that is all it takes. No other action is needed. Now, that salvation, that faith that has saved you is "evidenced" by your walk. Once you are saved you are a new creation in Christ; the old is gone....poof. Justification, just as if I never sinned. Sanctification is a life long process that brings you closer to holiness; although never fully realized since we are human and not perfect. It's a process. It's all about faith and the desire of follow Christ, to live the life of Christ.

You said something that needs further clarification. What do you mean by "blatantly" disobey?

 

[JettaKnight]

Interesting to hear you speak of it this way.

Most protestant theology is a reaction to Catholicism. Yall will use the same terms with similar enough definitions while we will use the same words but mean entirely something different.

My exposure to Protestants usually has them saying I was saved on insert date here.

Orthodox won't speak in such terms.

I wrote on all this stuff extensively in the Reformation thread. So no need to rehash it here.

I was trying to slyly speak of a certain Tuesday in November ever for years.

 

[foszoe]

I was trying to slyly speak of a certain Tuesday in November ever for years.

I sm incredibly slow...you know that!

 

[JettaKnight]

If someone is willingly (and in some cases, gleefully) endorsing sin, does that not tell us that they are, in fact, not Christian? Something about by their deeds you shall know them...

I want to get into this, but also want to respect this thread.