CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[historian]

Could you fill me in on why some Baptist Churches would not join the SBC? I think some are Free Will so that I could understand, but does the SBC have a Statement of Faith that some congregations specifically reject even if only on one or two bullet items? Don't need a thesis, just maybe a list of the lines in the sand website or something

Has the SBC evolved it's Statement of Faith over time to placate some member congregation?

SBC standard line is the Baptist Faith and Message and it reads like a post from Foszoe (): Southern Baptist Convention > The Baptist Faith and Message

Baptists are by nature independent (not Independent, that is something else, like Orthodox and orthodox/ Catholic and catholic). There are several who are Independent who "Fellowship" together (in Indiana it is the IFBF). The Regular Baptists all fall under the General Association of Regular Baptists (note, association). The Southern Baptists are a "Convention." And the American Baptists are pretty much liberals who we don't talk about anymore. There are also Free Will Baptists, who chose their own way . And there are several organizations of Baptists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Baptist_organizations.

Generally, churches align themselves within these groups, based on more similar beliefs. The all believe the same basics and core, but differ on the periphery (if that makes sense). Just like I can have a similar view of salvation as a Presbyterian, but I don't believe in infant baptism and conventional theology (I'm a dispensationalist personally).

 

[JettaKnight]

Could you fill me in on why some Baptist Churches would not join the SBC?

Because we don't need to. In other words, why should we join? What's the benefit? We're doing just fine on our own.


For us, as Regular Baptists, we hold a Calvinist view of soteriology, which quite isn't in line with the SBC. Here's a poll on SBC pastor's views. For others, they've already embraced modernism and don't hold as strong to the authority of scripture in all matters (e.g. sexuality). Other churches may still hold negative connotations of the SBC related to their racist past. Some dislike seminaries and formal training of pastors. Still others like gregr's church are opposed to any structured affiliation as a matter of principle.



On a slightly different topic, have you looked at Landmark Baptist? As I understand it, they claim a succession line from John the Baptist, similar to Apostolic Succession of the popes from Peter. But John the Baptist came first. And the SBC has denounced Landmarkism, so that's a whole group that won't join.

I hope I made it murky for you!

 

[foszoe]

Got one coming based on your recommendation.

Thanks!

Had a chance to peruse that book yet?

Curious if you have found it helpful or not.

Or if you find that coming from a different perspective has helped you any in your study of the Psalms.

Good, bad or indifferent! Let me know.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Had a chance to peruse that book yet?

Curious if you have found it helpful or not.

Or if you find that coming from a different perspective has helped you any in your study of the Psalms.

Good, bad or indifferent! Let me know.

Some. I haven't had a chance to really compare it to our studies yet. It really wasn't I thought it was going to be when I first got it. But the little bit I've compared it to the Psalms we've been going through, I think that's a good thing.

 

[historian]

So...Doing Membership classes at our new church, and Baptism and Communion Came up.

Very interesting discussion. Somehow our traditions got flipped and my mind is still trying to adjust to this new construct.

Baptism (if you look up the references in the Bible) isn't a "Public Expression of our Faith" as is frequently announced. Communion isn't a prayer to God about our sins. Rather Baptism is a prayer to God in that it symbolizes our death to sin and our dependence on God to raise us from the dead in life.

Communion is a public expression of our faith. And here comes the kicker about communion! The whole "Examine Yourself" part that comes before it, ISN'T WHAT WE WERE (Generally) TAUGHT!!!!! If you look at 1 Cor. 11 and put things in context, that part is an express command to the Corinthian Church who were (as usual) screwing everything up. No, that "Examining" is about examining your relationship with your church. Baptist practice (sorry to T. and others) neo-Catholicism. We treat the time before communion as "confession" and then partake. However, to not be like the icky Catholics () we just do the ritual less.

My mind is still trying to rebuild around this new construct.

 

[foszoe]

In Baptist theology is there any note taken of how Paul uses the terms σαρξ (flesh) and σωμα (body)? a

I have been reading St Gregory Palamas Treatise on the Spiritual Life (14c around 1341) and in the foot notes, it talks about how the early Christians distinguished between these two with flesh indicating the passions which the Christian is constantly at war with and the body which is considered created good in its nature. In short, it means that our appetites are what is affected by the fall.

For example. The desire to eat is good, but through the fall it is warped into gluttony or sex given for sharing joy and procreation is warped into fornication and pleasure seeking solely for pleasure.

Although other Church fathers used the distinction, Gregory is credited for advancing the argument that the passions themselves were originally good whereas others will disagree with him.

Interestingly enough for anyone that's interested, St Gregory Palamas is one of the key Saints that stands between Latin and Greek (T Lex ). The arguments between Gregory and Barlaam should be familiar to anyone who is interested in Christian or Church history.

 

[foszoe]

There is so much I could say

I will leave it at this.

Pray Psalm 50(51) David's Penitential Psalm before receiving.

Here is the Orthodox Prayers to be said before receiving. Perhaps some of them will speak to you.

https://www.orthodox.net/services/order-of-preparation-for-holy-communion.pdf

Finally self examination of one against the 10 commandments, the Beattitudes, and the two great commandments should be done before laying down upon the bed.

A Prayer of St John of Damascus,said pointing at the bed:

O Master Who lovest mankind, is this be to be my coffin? Or wilt Thou enlighten my wretched soul with another day? Behold: before me lies the coffin, before me stands death! O Lord, I fear Thy judgment and the endless torments, yet I cease not to do evil. I always anger Thee, my Lord God, and Thy most pure Mother, all the heavenly hosts and my holy Guardian Angel. I know, Lord, that I am unworthy of Thy love for mankind. Indeed, I am worthy of every condemnation and torment. Yet, Lord, save me whether I want it or not! When Thou savest the righteous, it is no great thing. When Thou has mercy on the pure, it causes no wonder, for they are worthy of Thy mercy. Astound us with Thy mercy towards me, a sinner. Reveal in this manner Thy love for mankind, that my wickedness may not overcome Thine inexpressible goodness and mercy. As Thou wilt,order my life!

Wishing to lie down on your bed, say:

Enlighten my eyes, Christ God, that I fall not asleep to death and that my enemy may not say of me: I have overcome him.

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:

Be the Helper of my soul, O God, for I walk among many snares. Deliver me from them, O Good One, and save me,for Thou lovest mankind.

Now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen

So...Doing Membership classes at our new church, and Baptism and Communion Came up.

Very interesting discussion. Somehow our traditions got flipped and my mind is still trying to adjust to this new construct.

Baptism (if you look up the references in the Bible) isn't a "Public Expression of our Faith" as is frequently announced. Communion isn't a prayer to God about our sins. Rather Baptism is a prayer to God in that it symbolizes our death to sin and our dependence on God to raise us from the dead in life.

Communion is a public expression of our faith. And here comes the kicker about communion! The whole "Examine Yourself" part that comes before it, ISN'T WHAT WE WERE (Generally) TAUGHT!!!!! If you look at 1 Cor. 11 and put things in context, that part is an express command to the Corinthian Church who were (as usual) screwing everything up. No, that "Examining" is about examining your relationship with your church. Baptist practice (sorry to T. and others) neo-Catholicism. We treat the time before communion as "confession" and then partake. However, to not be like the icky Catholics () we just do the ritual less.

My mind is still trying to rebuild around this new construct.

 

[historian]

For example. The desire to eat is good, but through the fall it is warped into gluttony or sex given for sharing joy and procreation is warped into fornication and pleasure seeking solely for pleasure.

Although other Church fathers used the distinction, Gregory is credited for advancing the argument that the passions themselves were originally good whereas others will disagree with him.

If you read anything by John Piper, you'll come away with a similar (if implied) thought process. Piper, for those unfamiliar, wrote a book called Desiring God. In it, he laid out the concept of "Christian Hedonism." The gist was taking Westmister Shorter 1 and expounding. The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. Piper flipped that and said that God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in Him. Thus emotions (passions) are to be directed at and towards God. You see a lot of this in the Psalms.

 

[T.Lex]

In Baptist theology is there any note taken of how Paul uses the terms σαρξ (flesh) and σωμα (body)? a

I have been reading St Gregory Palamas Treatise on the Spiritual Life (14c around 1341) and in the foot notes, it talks about how the early Christians distinguished between these two with flesh indicating the passions which the Christian is constantly at war with and the body which is considered created good in its nature. In short, it means that our appetites are what is affected by the fall.

For example. The desire to eat is good, but through the fall it is warped into gluttony or sex given for sharing joy and procreation is warped into fornication and pleasure seeking solely for pleasure.

There are some interesting intersections between developments in philosophy/religion and understanding of anatomy/physiology. I've always kinda wondered if some of these nuances were due to those limitations. It again reflects (to me) that Christ spoke to 2 very different audiences - those of His time and those (us) who came after.

Although other Church fathers used the distinction, Gregory is credited for advancing the argument that the passions themselves were originally good whereas others will disagree with him.

Interestingly enough for anyone that's interested, St Gregory Palamas is one of the key Saints that stands between Latin and Greek (T Lex ). The arguments between Gregory and Barlaam should be familiar to anyone who is interested in Christian or Church history.

Indeed. I can't help be reminded, though, of certain Eastern (as in Oriental) influences regarding balance and moderation.

 

[foszoe]

[FONT=&amp]Throw this out there for ATM

I find all of these things difficult, but I think he would thrive on them without any difficulty at all. The line for each person is different. The important thing is probably to know where your own line is and not cross it.

"For such is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish men" (1 Peter 2:15).[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]Brethren, it is difficult to argue with an atheist; it is difficult to talk with an unreasonable man; it is difficult to convince an embittered man. It is difficult to convince the atheist, the unreasonable man and the embittered man with words. You will convince them easier by deeds. "They may through observing you by reason of your good works glorify God" (1 Peter 2:12). Do good deeds to those who wish to argue with you and you will win the argument. One deed of compassion will bring the unreasonable man to his senses and will pacify the embittered man quicker than many hours of conversation. If atheism, unreasonableness and bitterness stem from ignorance, that ignorance is as a fury, which can quickly be restrained by good works. If you argue with an atheist in his own rabid manner, you strengthen the fury of atheism. If you converse with the unreasonable by derision, the darkness of unreasonableness is increased. If you think you will overcome the embittered man with anger, you will stir up a greater fire of bitterness. A meek and good deed is like water over a fire. Always remember the holy apostles and their successful methods of behavior with men. If an atheist provokes you, the man does not provoke you but the devil provokes you: man by nature is religious. If the unreasonable man scolds you, the man does not scold you but the devil scolds you: man by nature is reasonable. If the embittered one persecutes you, then it is not the man who persecutes you but the devil who persecutes you: for man by nature is good. The devil provokes you to lengthy arguments and unfruitful conversations and flees from good deeds. Do good work in the Name of Christ and the devil will flee and only then will you have dealings with men, with true men; religious, reasonable and good men. Therefore whatever you do, do in the Name of the Lord.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]O All-good Lord, help us to do good and by good to conquer in Your Name.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]To You be glory and thanks always. Amen.[/FONT]

 

[foszoe]

I do have Piper's Taste and See.

I have not read it cover to cover, but its purpose is more devotional than a laying out of a theological viewpoint.

Then again so is St. Gregory's work. It is a letter to an abbess about how to advance the spiritual life of the nuns in her charge.

If you read anything by John Piper, you'll come away with a similar (if implied) thought process. Piper, for those unfamiliar, wrote a book called Desiring God. In it, he laid out the concept of "Christian Hedonism." The gist was taking Westmister Shorter 1 and expounding. The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. Piper flipped that and said that God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in Him. Thus emotions (passions) are to be directed at and towards God. You see a lot of this in the Psalms.

 

[ATM]

What if one became addicted to overcoming addictions?

What a recursively infinite challenge that might become.

 

[foszoe]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-in-latest-move-to-make-church-more-inclusive

 

[foszoe]

What if one became addicted to overcoming addictions?

What a recursively infinite challenge that might become.

Wonder if that's why in Orthodox Christianity you have room for improvement throughout eternity?

 

[ATM]

Wonder if that's why in Orthodox Christianity you have room for improvement throughout eternity?

In it to win it. The bell does not release eternity, I do.

 

[foszoe]

I was reading in Matthew today and one of my "commentaries" spoke against something that I have heard mentioned here. A belief that no miracles occurred after the apostolic era or at least in our time. Can someone give me the name of that doctrine? Apparently some form of it existed much earlier than when I encountered it here and read about it because I thought then that it arose in the 18th century. The quote below is from 10/11 c.

[§ 2. THE IMPIETY OF DENYING THE EFFECTS OF GRACE]

Like unbelievers and those completely uninitiated into the divine mysteries when they hear anything about divine illumination, [40] or of the enlightenment of soul and mind, or of contemplation and freedom from passion, or of humility and tears that are poured out by the working and grace of the Holy Spirit, straightway the eyes of their hearts (cf. Rom. 1:21, 11:10) are darkened rather than enlightened, as though they could not endure the exceeding great light and power of the words. They audaciously aver that these things come from the deceit of demons. They do not tremble either before the judgment of God or at the damage they inflict on those who hear them. These imprudent men shamelessly affirm to everybody that nothing like that comes from God to any of the faithful in our day. This is more of an impiety than a heresy. It is heresy when someone turns aside in any way from the dogmas that have been defined concerning the right faith. [50] But to deny that at this present time there are some who love God, and that they have been granted the Holy Spirit and to be baptized by Him as sons of God, that they have become gods by knowledge and experience and contemplation, that wholly subverts the Incarnation of our God and Savior Jesus Christ (Tit. 2:13)! It clearly denies the renewal of the image that had been corrupted and put to death, and its return to incorruption and immortality.

Symeon. (1980). Symeon the New Theologian: The Discourses. (R. J. Payne, Ed., C. J. de Catanzaro, Trans.) (p. 336). Mahwah, NJ: Paulist Press.

 

[ATM]

Cessationism?



That belief may have existed at one time, but not any more.

 

[foszoe]

Yes thanks!!!

Cessationism?



That belief may have existed at one time, but not any more.

 

[foszoe]

Got this today. Tonya and John were outcasts at Moody Radio after becoming Orthodox. Michael Hyatt was CEO of Thomas Nelson, and Hanks background and outcasting I actually learned about in this thread which is why I am posting this in case anyone is interested.

Dear Friends,

On Palm Sunday, April 9, 2017, my wife Tonya and I had the privilege of joining Dn. Michael and Gail Hyatt along with Frederica Mathewes-Green in witnessing the chrismation of Hank Hanegraaff, a well-known Evangelical Bible teacher who became an Orthodox Christian, together with several members of his family. Shortly thereafter, he lost a substantial part of his long-time radio audience, became the target of bitter attacks on the internet and in person, and was diagnosed with cancer.

Before Palm Sunday, Hank was a widely respected biblical authority, known and loved throughout the Evangelical world. The next morning, he was an outcast whose spiritual future was thought by many to be in grave danger. But in Hank's eyes, and in our eyes here at Ancient Faith, he celebrated Pascha this year in the embrace of the historic Christian Church, taking the first trustful steps into what he has come to know as the true Faith.

From our inception, Ancient Faith Ministries has loved and honored opportunities to share Orthodox journey stories. Our archives are rich with accounts of how people found the Orthodox church and climbed over obstacles, survived confusion and defeat, and came finally to participate in the fullness of the Church. So when we learned about Hank, we set out to do what we have always done - hear this new conversion story, in the words of the person whose life it transformed.

Because of our ongoing conversations with Hank and his family, and because of our wide-ranging connections in the Orthodox internet world, we are fully aware of the tension and debate swirling around Hank, and the many opinions offered about what he should and shouldn't be asked to do in his new role as an Orthodox Christian. We respect the long years of study that ultimately brought Hank to Orthodoxy, and we are confident that at some point it will be appropriate to open up platforms for him to share his new-found Faith with the Orthodox world.

In the meantime, we're delighted to announce that we had the privilege of inviting Hank Hanegraaff and Frederica Mathewes-Green to meet in person and talk. Their conversation lasted for two days, and from it we've collected a fascinating 3-part interview where they discuss the complex realities of his health challenges but also his journey to the Orthodox Faith.

A brief trailer from the interview is now available (click here to watch), and we'll be releasing the first segment of this multi-part video offering soon.

Hank Hanegraaff - On the Record
We ask your prayers and your kindness for Hank and his family as he undergoes treatment for cancer and works each day to grow into his Orthodox Christian life.

In Christ,

John Maddex

 

[JettaKnight]

Hank has cancer?