CIA Has Become “One Hell of a Killing Machine”

[phylodog]

I knew you'd show me some fake outrage at the CIA bypassing the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th amendments.


The Bill of Rights is our way of life. Pull your head out of the sand and defend it.

Show me where the CIA is murdering Americans and I'll show some legitimate concern. Vaporizing our enemies, on foreign soil, doesn't concern me. I know I'm supposed to buy into the whole "if they can do it over there they will do it here" BS mentality but sorry, ain't happenin. Using that scare tactic to prevent the US government from doing what needs to be done is a fantastic way to see this country brought to it's knees in short order. I know that would please you to no end but it's not what I want for my children and grandchildren.

Contrary to those who spend their days searching for perceived injustices to whine about, I still believe that I live in the finest country the world has ever seen. It's not perfect but it's a hell of a lot better than the alternatives.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I'm confused.

ram, is your complaint that it should be the USAF behind the joysticks on the drones (isn't it already)?

What's wrong with the CIA killing enemy combatants? Isn't this what the government should be doing? The OSS did it before the CIA and let us all hope that we kill many of them.

I knew you'd show me some fake outrage at the CIA bypassing the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th amendments.

When and where? In Wazirastan? In Iowa? What are you talking about?

Bill of Rights applies to the government, right?

I'm not certain what you mean by that, but the Bill of Rights does not apply to nonresident aliens outside the United States of America.

United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Kirk Freeman]

If the CIA has become a killing machine why should I not be appreciative of this? This is what they should be doing.

For example, we do not train SEAL 10 to deliver the food aid or act as school crossing guards. They are there to do the work we cannot or will not. Thank goodness there are men like them.

Why should we be shocked at killing in a war???

 

[ViperJock]

Interesting question of the ROE. Consider the way a military ROE works in today's urban theater;
At times the enemy must fire upon our forces to be engaged. At times, just driving the wrong car in the wrong way or holding binoculars can put them on the wrong side of a sniper rifle. Either way, no trial.
What are the ROE with the CIA? should they be different that the uniformed military? What is the difference between a CIA drone attack on a "suspected" combatant and the sniper? I would suspect the CIA may acutally have better intel on their targets than occurs at the front in some situations.

I don't presume to know where the line between killing enemy combatants and murdering outspoken/innocent people is, I just hope the day never comes when we see predators flying overhead in our own home towns.

 

[ATOMonkey]

I'm not certain what you mean by that, but the Bill of Rights does not apply to nonresident aliens outside the United States of America.

United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I wonder if the founders ever intended for the Federal Government to operate outside the borders of this country.

It contradicts my conscious to think that a document penned to put an end to tyranny would give credence to the same tyranny as long as it was being done upon a people of a different land.

 

[ATOMonkey]

Interesting question of the ROE. Consider the way a military ROE works in today's urban theater;
At times the enemy must fire upon our forces to be engaged. At times, just driving the wrong car in the wrong way or holding binoculars can put them on the wrong side of a sniper rifle. Either way, no trial.
What are the ROE with the CIA? should they be different that the uniformed military? What is the difference between a CIA drone attack on a "suspected" combatant and the sniper? I would suspect the CIA may acutally have better intel on their targets than occurs at the front in some situations.

I don't presume to know where the line between killing enemy combatants and murdering outspoken/innocent people is, I just hope the day never comes when we see predators flying overhead in our own home towns.

Don't worry, you'll never see them.

 

[ATOMonkey]

If the CIA has become a killing machine why should I not be appreciative of this? This is what they should be doing.

For example, we do not train SEAL 10 to deliver the food aid or act as school crossing guards. They are there to do the work we cannot or will not. Thank goodness there are men like them.

Why should we be shocked at killing in a war???

SEALS are a bit different. They're more like shock troops than anything else. Not really operating independantly in a clandestine manner. Of the de-classifed operations, they've been used as a force to carry out specific ops originated outside of their ranks.

DELTA would be a better comparison as they often act on behalf of the US Army out of uniform, similar to how the CIA operate. DELTA (once again based on declassified ops) is given free reign to conduct their operations as they see fit within a very vague general description of what is supposed to happen. And also like the CIA, if you're caught, DELTA doesn't exist according to the US government.

 

[CarmelHP]

I wonder if the founders ever intended for the Federal Government to operate outside the borders of this country.

It contradicts my conscious to think that a document penned to put an end to tyranny would give credence to the same tyranny as long as it was being done upon a people of a different land.

You mean Founders like Thomas Jefferson, the Jefferson who sent Marines to the "Shores of Tripoli?"

 

[Kirk Freeman]

It contradicts my conscious to think that a document penned to put an end to tyranny would give credence to the same tyranny as long as it was being done upon a people of a different land.

It is not tyranny to kill your enemy.

 

[indykid]

When the enemy of the United States warns us before attacking, then and only then will I be angry with any American taking out an enemy combatant on enemy soil.

Do they warn our soldiers before detonating a roadside bomb?

Did they warn us before flying passenger airplanes into our buildings? How many people have forgotten why we are bombing them. They started it. There used to be more buildings in the skyline of New York City, and there are over 3000 fewer Americans and allies today due to our enemy not following our constitution in our country and warning our people they were about to be murdered.

 

[dross]

These discussions are frustrating. The argument is clearly in the premeses, not the conclusions, but the initiators of these arguments always resist defining their premeses. This allows them to shift their argument around on the surface, often with an air of their superior righteousness in their adherence to whatever principles they are adhering to, without ever really defining those principles except by implication in the negative.

Also, by implication based on reading their arguments over the years, I must also conclude that they don't think ANYTHING the U.S. does is legitimate because apparently we've been living in tyranny since the Constitution was ratified, since it immediately began being violated as soon as it was the law of the land.

It's really impossible to argue, because they won't define their position except that what the U.S. is doing is wrong, and if you argue effectively one way, they shift their position to another way. And the trump card is the U.S. is wrong, because the U.S. is wrong.

It's like the gun ban advocates who argue for a hi cap magazine ban or a ban against certain kinds of bullets. The real truth is they want to ban guns. The real truth of Rambone and several other is they don't recognize the legitimacy of ANYTHING the U.S. does.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

How is killing our enemy not a legitimate function of our government?

It's not like this is the police in Two Mules, Kansas shooting people for speeding.

This is SEAL 10 in Two Goats, Warizastan shooting smelly terrorists in the face.

 

[MTC]

How does the Bill of Rights apply to enemy combatants operating in foreign countries?

The answer to this will go a long way toward diagnosing his (and some others') major malfunction.

What's wrong with the CIA killing enemy combatants? Isn't this what the government should be doing? The OSS did it before the CIA and let us all hope that we kill [STRIKE]many[/strike] all of them.

... the Bill of Rights does not apply to nonresident aliens outside the United States of America.

If the CIA has become a killing machine why should I not be appreciative of this? This is what they should be doing.

For example, we do not train SEAL 10 to deliver the food aid or act as school crossing guards. They are there to do the work we cannot or will not. Thank goodness there are men like them.

"school crossing guards"

Why should we be shocked at killing in a war???

It is not tyranny to kill your enemy.

QFT

 

[jedi]

The real truth of Rambone and several other is they don't recognize the legitimacy of ANYTHING the U.S. does.

--end of line--

 

[88GT]

These discussions are frustrating. The argument is clearly in the premeses, not the conclusions, but the initiators of these arguments always resist defining their premeses. This allows them to shift their argument around on the surface, often with an air of their superior righteousness in their adherence to whatever principles they are adhering to, without ever really defining those principles except by implication in the negative.

Also, by implication based on reading their arguments over the years, I must also conclude that they don't think ANYTHING the U.S. does is legitimate because apparently we've been living in tyranny since the Constitution was ratified, since it immediately began being violated as soon as it was the law of the land.

It's really impossible to argue, because they won't define their position except that what the U.S. is doing is wrong, and if you argue effectively one way, they shift their position to another way. And the trump card is the U.S. is wrong, because the U.S. is wrong.

It's like the gun ban advocates who argue for a hi cap magazine ban or a ban against certain kinds of bullets. The real truth is they want to ban guns. The real truth of Rambone and several other is they don't recognize the legitimacy of ANYTHING the U.S. does.

Succinctly stated.

However, I'd add one more detail: they don't think anything a GOVERNMENT does is legitimate. Rambone's posted quite a few articles highlighting state government tyranny (and it is tyranny) of late which makes me think he wants no government at all.

Of course, that sounds all well and good until the natural consequences follow. No government? How about no authority, no standard of acceptable behavior, no means of seeking redress when you've been wrong saved by by force alone. There's still be just as much tyranny in the world, it would just be served up by the person or persons with the willingness and ability to use the most brutal means possible. Gang warfare would start to look like Girl Scout jamborees.

 

[Garb]

These discussions are frustrating. The argument is clearly in the premeses, not the conclusions, but the initiators of these arguments always resist defining their premeses. This allows them to shift their argument around on the surface, often with an air of their superior righteousness in their adherence to whatever principles they are adhering to, without ever really defining those principles except by implication in the negative.

Also, by implication based on reading their arguments over the years, I must also conclude that they don't think ANYTHING the U.S. does is legitimate because apparently we've been living in tyranny since the Constitution was ratified, since it immediately began being violated as soon as it was the law of the land.

It's really impossible to argue, because they won't define their position except that what the U.S. is doing is wrong, and if you argue effectively one way, they shift their position to another way. And the trump card is the U.S. is wrong, because the U.S. is wrong.

It's like the gun ban advocates who argue for a hi cap magazine ban or a ban against certain kinds of bullets. The real truth is they want to ban guns. The real truth of Rambone and several other is they don't recognize the legitimacy of ANYTHING the U.S. does.

I certainly don't view our federal government as having that much credibility anymore. Also, I don't have a problem with blowing the **** out of our enemies, but the CIA is involved in influencing foreign politics through threats and violence. Those politics usually have nothing to do with our national security. I'm all for legitimate wars. I'm against wars that are for money or power.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

If you want to abolish government, I would suggest the predatory governments found in most of Africa and the Middle East.

 

[steveh_131]

Rambone's posted quite a few articles highlighting state government tyranny (and it is tyranny) of late which makes me think he wants no government at all.

Exposing government tyranny = "wants no government at all"?

How exactly do you make this leap of logic?

 

[dross]

Exposing government tyranny = "wants no government at all"?

How exactly do you make this leap of logic?

She didn't.

 

[rambone]

Show me where the CIA is murdering Americans and I'll show some legitimate concern.

Anwar Al Awlaki is an American citizen, actively being targeted for termination.

It was reported in 2010 that dozens of other American citizens are being targeted as well.

Using that scare tactic to prevent the US government from doing what needs to be done is a fantastic way to see this country brought to it's knees in short order. I know that would please you to no end but it's not what I want for my children and grandchildren.

The only thing that is going to bring this country to its knees is its own government. It shouldn't be hard to imagine how that might happen.

And enough with the "If you disagree with me you must hate America" stuff.

Contrary to those who spend their days searching for perceived injustices to whine about, I still believe that I live in the finest country the world has ever seen. It's not perfect but it's a hell of a lot better than the alternatives.

Guess what? The 'go back to sleep' mentality is what is wrong with the country. I love this country too. You can't even bring yourself to admit that there are actual injustices perpetrated by the government. That doesn't sound like the attitude we need to keep this government on the straight and narrow.

If nothing changes in this government, the country will necessarily devolve into ruin. The course America travels on has been unsustainable for a long time. Do you deny that? All these well-intentioned exemptions from the constitution will bite us in the ass.

America is not perfect but it [STRIKE]can[/STRIKE] MUST learn to be better. Patriotism is not about making excuses for your rulers.

ram, is your complaint that it should be the USAF behind the joysticks on the drones (isn't it already)?

The CIA itself is overseas participating in the killing.

CIA to operate drones over Yemen

(Yes America is bombing Yemen too)

If the CIA has become a killing machine why should I not be appreciative of this? This is what they should be doing.

That's what the military is for. I think it is a bit troubling when civilian bureaucracies are now being renowned for turning into a "killing machine." They should stick with intelligence, if they stick around at all.

The CIA is another bureaucracy run amok, given a license to kill and showing no obedience to our constitution.

I'm not certain what you mean by that, but the Bill of Rights does not apply to nonresident aliens outside the United States of America.

United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If that is true, then does it follow that the Feds may do the following to non-resident aliens on foreign soil? Ban free speech, ban assembly, ban religion, confiscate weapons, quarter soldiers in homes, detain people indefinitely without due process, torture people...

Rights aren't truly derived from the constitution anyways, correct? Neither are they derived from which patch of dirt you were born on.

I just hope the day never comes when we see predators flying overhead in our own home towns.

DHS Deploying Predator Drones over Canadian Border

Aerial drones to begin circling American cities

It contradicts my conscious to think that a document penned to put an end to tyranny would give credence to the same tyranny as long as it was being done upon a people of a different land.