Church Security Conference

[Amishman44]

Now. As to the insurance aspects...? Recently spoke with a rep from a church about allowing some members to be armed. After he floated the idea with his insurance carrier (and it was a well though-out plan) the carrier basically dropped the church.

Yup...the insurance companies do not like being on the hook for anything.

Our church is starting to think about security but this level sadly would cause heads to explode. I will quietly usher today with a CCW under my sweater.

I CC on Sundays as well...every Sunday to be exact!

I live by Murphy's Law...I have one...I am prepared...therefore I will 'never' need it (or so the theory goes!)

I would much rather be judged by twelve than carried by six...as the saying goes!

 

[rhino]

We had to educate some of our congregation who were carrying. During the week it is a school so no carry on sunday either. Many didnt understand this and it took some time to educate them.

Many made requests of the school board and got permission so they are good to go.

Might be something to cover in these seminars if not already covered. Some f the carriers were pretty reluctant to believe they couldnt carry on Sunday at a church.

It's noteworthy that your school board responded in a positive way to the request, even though it's not a public school. Good for them.

 

[GIJEW]

Now. As to the insurance aspects...?

Recently spoke with a rep from a church about allowing some members to be armed. After he floated the idea with his insurance carrier (and it was a well though-out plan) the carrier basically dropped the church.

I suppose having the armed congregants carrying personal liability insurance would still leave the insurance co. involved since the congregation authorized them to carry, but liability is a double edged sword with negligence including acts of omission too. What were the criteria for authorizing individuals--ie prior LEO/mil experience; updated professional training?

 

[Expatriated]

It seems to me a lot of it would be dependent on the role of those carrying. Are they "working" on behalf of the church in a security role? Or do they just happen to be people that carry at church?

For example, we have a security team but there is no requirement or even encouragement for those members to carry.

I think its wise for the church to not authorize or encourage but if they comment at all on it, a statement to the effect of "Our church follows all state laws regarding the carrying of weapons on the premises". So they are in effect saying anyone can carry as long as they meet ltch requirements.

but im no lawyer and i dont run a church

 

[GIJEW]

It seems to me a lot of it would be dependent on the role of those carrying. Are they "working" on behalf of the church in a security role? Or do they just happen to be people that carry at church?

For example, we have a security team but there is no requirement or even encouragement for those members to carry.

I think its wise for the church to not authorize or encourage but if they comment at all on it, a statement to the effect of "Our church follows all state laws regarding the carrying of weapons on the premises". So they are in effect saying anyone can carry as long as they meet ltch requirements.

but im no lawyer and i dont run a church

I agree, not officially being involved, creates a firewall for the church; but if there is school on the premises during the week, the church leadership would have to give authorization. I was wondering what the proposed plan said about who would be authorized. It's a little hard to understand why an insurance company is OK with an off duty LEO carrying on the premises but if he retires (or a veteran of a combat unit) and carries, then it's a problem--regardless of whether he keeps up on training.

 

[Expatriated]

I agree, not officially being involved, creates a firewall for the church; but if there is school on the premises during the week, the church leadership would have to give authorization. I was wondering what the proposed plan said about who would be authorized. It's a little hard to understand why an insurance company is OK with an off duty LEO carrying on the premises but if he retires (or a veteran of a combat unit) and carries, then it's a problem--regardless of whether he keeps up on training.

Actually, IN law requires that the school board give permission, not that the church give permission. May be a fine line, depending on the relationship between the church/school. But if the school board gives a person permission to carry at school, then they are automatically allowed to carry at the church. But, from a legal standpoint, they weren't really given permission to carry at church, but rather at school. The church is sort of thrown in as a bonus, so to speak.

May seem like semantics but I think it helps protect the church and the congregation and/or deacon or whatever is not really making a statement on the carrying at church. The school board has granted permission to carry at school. No one in Indiana needs permission to carry at a church, only a school.

 

[GIJEW]

Actually, IN law requires that the school board give permission, not that the church give permission. May be a fine line, depending on the relationship between the church/school. But if the school board gives a person permission to carry at school, then they are automatically allowed to carry at the church. But, from a legal standpoint, they weren't really given permission to carry at church, but rather at school. The church is sort of thrown in as a bonus, so to speak.

May seem like semantics but I think it helps protect the church and the congregation and/or deacon or whatever is not really making a statement on the carrying at church. The school board has granted permission to carry at school. No one in Indiana needs permission to carry at a church, only a school.

IIRC there is an exception for the owner(s) of private property authorizing individual(s) to be armed. If a congregation were renting classrooms to a daycare etc, then it seems that the congregation could authorize people to be armed, especially on a weekend when school was closed. Maybe Kirk or Guy will chime in...pro bono?

 

[Brian@ITC]

I do not contribute anything to this forum on a regular basis because of the silliness that takes place. Most of you want to attack every little thing I say and honestly I do not have time to sit here and argue with people who have nothing to learn. I’ve spent countless hours here and on other forums reading, responding, etc. and I am in awe of the nonsense.

As far as the “pad” thing, I thought that was long gone. Sometimes you just have to move on, but sadly many of you want to hold on to things that don’t really matter. Even if the person who wants to hold the pad did so and came back and said “it was the greatest thing they’ve ever seen…”, most of you would still doubt and/or attack our teachings, etc. Some of you just don’t want to hear anything other than what you want to hear that makes you feel good. Funny thing is that not a single one of you has even tried executing what was done in those videos and yet you want to run your mouths, hence the reason I only post classes here. If you wanted to know if it works, ANY of you could have actually done something by now.

I’ve stated in the past that our training speaks for itself. And if you don’t want to come and experience that, then you have no right to bash our training.

So, please quit hijacking this thread and keep things relative to the post.

For those of you who want to learn more about church security, I apologize for the inappropriate attacks on me. Please do not listen to the nonsense that people talk. Come and train and judge for yourself. After all, there's a 100% money back guarantee.

 

[SSGSAD]

I do not contribute anything to this forum on a regular basis because of the silliness that takes place. Most of you want to attack every little thing I say and honestly I do not have time to sit here and argue with people who have nothing to learn. I’ve spent countless hours here and on other forums reading, responding, etc. and I am in awe of the nonsense.

As far as the “pad” thing, I thought that was long gone. Sometimes you just have to move on, but sadly many of you want to hold on to things that don’t really matter. Even if the person who wants to hold the pad did so and came back and said “it was the greatest thing they’ve ever seen…”, most of you would still doubt and/or attack our teachings, etc. Some of you just don’t want to hear anything other than what you want to hear that makes you feel good. Funny thing is that not a single one of you has even tried executing what was done in those videos and yet you want to run your mouths, hence the reason I only post classes here. If you wanted to know if it works, ANY of you could have actually done something by now.

I’ve stated in the past that our training speaks for itself. And if you don’t want to come and experience that, then you have no right to bash our training.

So, please quit hijacking this thread and keep things relative to the post.

For those of you who want to learn more about church security, I apologize for the inappropriate attacks on me. Please do not listen to the nonsense that people talk. Come and train and judge for yourself. After all, there's a 100% money back guarantee.

I agree, 100% ..... I just became Head of Security, for my Church .....

We have a very small congregation .....

I would love to take this class, so please keep me updated on the next class ....

I would be very interested .....

I am here to learn, and to teach, where I can .....

 

[cedartop]

.

So, please quit hijacking this thread and keep things relative to the post.
.

You are correct. For my part I apologize. Your class thread was not the proper place for my comment.

 

[Expatriated]

I do not contribute anything to this forum on a regular basis because of the silliness that takes place. Most of you want to attack every little thing.....

I pretty much agree. Sometimes this forum sounds a lot like virgins arguing about sex.

Anyway, I don't know what all the pad talk was about but I wish you well. There is definitely a need for good trainers in this area. It's a long-neglected area of tactical study, which is ironic because there's almost one shooting a week per average related to some organized religious meeting when I used to follow it.

Good luck!

 

[Brian@ITC]

SSGSAD-We normally only hold these conferences once, maybe twice a year. For the most part we conduct on-site training. I will tell you that we have some things brewing where things will be taught more often across the nation. I cannot elaborate on that, but in the next six months or so you will hear more about it. Our church security program is very intense. We’ve trained LEO’s with over 42 years of experience and they had no idea there was so much involved in this ministry. Most churches have their heads in the sand and will not do anything about it until something bad happens in THEIR church. It is ALWAYS better to be proactive than reactive!

To those who apologized, I truly appreciate that. I am here to share knowledge. Plain and simple. We may not agree on most or many things, but I have a wealth of knowledge that I am willing to share. I don’t know everything nor do I pretend to. I love to train and I am passionate about teaching, especially when it comes to church security.

God Bless!

 

[IndyDave1776]

I do not contribute anything to this forum on a regular basis because of the silliness that takes place. Most of you want to attack every little thing I say and honestly I do not have time to sit here and argue with people who have nothing to learn. I’ve spent countless hours here and on other forums reading, responding, etc. and I am in awe of the nonsense.

As far as the “pad” thing, I thought that was long gone. Sometimes you just have to move on, but sadly many of you want to hold on to things that don’t really matter. Even if the person who wants to hold the pad did so and came back and said “it was the greatest thing they’ve ever seen…”, most of you would still doubt and/or attack our teachings, etc. Some of you just don’t want to hear anything other than what you want to hear that makes you feel good. Funny thing is that not a single one of you has even tried executing what was done in those videos and yet you want to run your mouths, hence the reason I only post classes here. If you wanted to know if it works, ANY of you could have actually done something by now.

I’ve stated in the past that our training speaks for itself. And if you don’t want to come and experience that, then you have no right to bash our training.

So, please quit hijacking this thread and keep things relative to the post.

For those of you who want to learn more about church security, I apologize for the inappropriate attacks on me. Please do not listen to the nonsense that people talk. Come and train and judge for yourself. After all, there's a 100% money back guarantee.

Let's see...

1. As stated above, you don't fraternize with sinners and tax collectors, yet you expect some good reputation as a larger than life maker of heroes to precede you. You stated that you have spent 'countless hours'. I have reviewed all the posts you have made on INGO. The overwhelming majority were announcements, not participation in any type of discussion. The few that were participatory in nature, as with the post above, were condescending and insulting in nature.

2. You clearly consider yourself to be 'attacked' when questions are raised concerning your resume, or more specifically, why people should consider you a credible trainer. The unfortunate truth is that most people expect some reasonable idea what they are paying for beyond a laundry list of line items you declare will be covered in your class, and a reasonable idea of why they should believe you can deliver. You haven't told us much of anything about yourself here, nor can I find it on your website.

3. Focusing in on the condescension, you seem to have a disdain for reliance on arms. You also give the impression that you consider the overwhelming majority of us to be dumber than bricks with the implied corollary that anyone who wasn't impossible stupid would instantly recognize your awesomeness in spite of the fact we don't know you from Adam because you are above fraternizing with us, even in text. If we wanted to know, we could have done something by now? Tell you what. Next time I am involved in an attack on a church, I will know whether or not my own ideas hold water. I will happily compare notes with you at that point.

4. How does you training speak for itself? From what you have told us, we know very little other than you can compile a list of issues to cover, have a mile-high ego and knowledge you apparently gained by divine revelation, and consider us to be dumber than a stack of bricks. The bards and troubadours have not held you up as a topic of their trade lately. We have a nice virtual brochure to look at, but not much else.

5. You have referenced what are apparently some very old sour grapes. From my perspective, the business about the pad and the videos is pretty meaningless, yet you have succeeded at using your treatment of them to convince me that not only do I not know you, but do NOT care to know you any better.

6. Threadjacking: I will grant you that one up to a point. It is a chronic pattern here that keeping a thread 'on topic' can be, well, challenging. It is extremely difficult when you do not participate beyond condescension and insults once in a while.

All things considered, I had gone so far as considering the cost-effectiveness and logistics involved with going to Richmond and had not entirely given up the idea at the point I sat down tonight. The combination of a glib and generalized approach to anything you have shared and then reviewing your past participation on INGO has led to to the conclusion that it is just a bad idea in spite of the subject matter being very interesting. The most important issue, however, is the importance of humility, especially in pastors and teachers. Given that you have chosen to take upon yourself a mantle that bridges conventional defensive instruction with a ministerial application of such knowledge, such an attribute would seem to be equally critical. In the end, after reviewing everything you have said to INGO from your first post forward, I see nothing that would encourage me to give the matter any further consideration.

 

[Roadie]

 

[Jackson]

I'm still hoping to arrange a time to hold the pad. If anyone has a group attending this course and would like a passably proficient shooter to fill a spot, I'd attend so I can meet Brian. I have my own pad.

I don't have any idea what you are talking about. But knowing you I want to know. What are you talking about?

As cosermann mentioned, I am referring to the knife thread. Specifically to the full body jab and an offer to hold the pad and experience it first hand.

I do not contribute anything to this forum on a regular basis because of the silliness that takes place. Most of you want to attack every little thing I say and honestly I do not have time to sit here and argue with people who have nothing to learn. I’ve spent countless hours here and on other forums reading, responding, etc. and I am in awe of the nonsense.

As far as the “pad” thing, I thought that was long gone. Sometimes you just have to move on, but sadly many of you want to hold on to things that don’t really matter. Even if the person who wants to hold the pad did so and came back and said “it was the greatest thing they’ve ever seen…”, most of you would still doubt and/or attack our teachings, etc. Some of you just don’t want to hear anything other than what you want to hear that makes you feel good. Funny thing is that not a single one of you has even tried executing what was done in those videos and yet you want to run your mouths, hence the reason I only post classes here. If you wanted to know if it works, ANY of you could have actually done something by now.

I’ve stated in the past that our training speaks for itself. And if you don’t want to come and experience that, then you have no right to bash our training.

So, please quit hijacking this thread and keep things relative to the post.

For those of you who want to learn more about church security, I apologize for the inappropriate attacks on me. Please do not listen to the nonsense that people talk. Come and train and judge for yourself. After all, there's a 100% money back guarantee.

So, at risk of raising the ire of our watchful moderator, I'd like to share a little of the back story to the "hold the pad" deal, and some of the PM's exchanged with Brian about it. It is not relevant to Church Security, but I think the whole exchange does say something about Brian's attitude (or maybe my misunderstanding, or maybe the closed-minded, spiteful nature of the T&T clique on the forum. I'll let you decide.)

As noted above, this all kicked off in a thread for a knife defense class that Brian was advertising. In that thread on 5/4/2014, jdhaines came in and posted some negative remarks about the style of training that Brian uses and the methods he teaches. He also posted a video to demonstrate his point. The video included Brian exhibiting a particular punching technique from his Thai Jitsu and highlighting the effect of the punch on the person holding a pad. jdhaines is quoted below. You can read his full comments at the link above.

I believe in this very strongly. To that end I'll use an ITC video to prove the point (though others would work):

Basic Jab (Whole Body Strike) - YouTube

On 5/17/2014, in reply to the notes about the video, I said:

So... I just watched this video. If his claims were true, he would be a boxing champion. His claims seem odd. In a properly executed boxing punch, the power comes right from the ground through your entire body in somewhat the same manner he describes (though at speed, with power instead of a push). Yet, very strong, very skilled boxers exchange full-power shots for 16 rounds without either going to the hospital. What is the secret these boxers are missing?

And what is Thai Jitsu?

and also this:

This all has me pretty curious. I'd like to hold the pad for him and feel the power first hand.

On 5/22/14 Brian responds to the above and to other comments in the knife defense thread with the following:

The primary reason I don’t spend much time on here is because most of you don’t really want to learn how to defend yourselves. Rather, you just want to sit here and “share” what you know or think you know. Too bad most of you don’t spend more time training than surfing the net. The amount of posts some of you haveclearly shows what some of you do…

I’ve said it before and I will continue to say it… truth is that most of you probably haven’t trained much or at all, and if you have it is with someone “mainstream”. We have trained extensively in many areas including with some mainstream instructors, we do not agree with most doctrines. We teach against the grain because mainstream “handgun tactics and martial arts” are not as effective as what you may want to believe. For the most part people on want to train in feel good methods, and then want to sit back and talk smack about something they have no idea about. Most of you forget that I have staff that are in LE and have had a lot of training too, and they fully support our doctrine because they realize just how flawed most self-defense training (handgun and unarmed) is.

They brought me on staff at Self Reliance Outfitters to do a lot of things and because they value my teaching abilities as they have been through some of my classes. Dave Canterbury is not going to associate himself with some “hack” because he has reputation to maintain. Just because you haven’t trained with us and don’t/won’t understand where we are coming from on most things doesn’t MAKE me a hack. It just means that you have a limited mindset and possibly limited training. Maybe, you are afraid of learning the truth about certain things in your training and would rather sit behind the monitor and bash people. I have chosen to “challenge” certain teachings in my person training time and have found a number of things to not be true or smart in a number of areas. I have known Dave since before he was on Dual Survival and he knows that I am legit and that I know what I'm doing. I've taught a class at one of his events...

If most of you truly understood the serious flaws of the fundamental principles that defensive handgun training is based upon, you might actually come to the realization that most handgun tactics are really just short of suicidal. But, you won’t see the truth no matter what I say. I can prove to you just how silly it is, but odds are that you will still believe what makes you feel good. Most people won’t accept the truth no matter how right you are. All I care about in my training and self-defense preparations is what is likely to work and why. As well as what isn’t good to work and why. I’ve explored those things extensively and that is our foundation from which we teach. I could go along with the “flow” of what is being taught by the mainstream people, but I don’t agree with it, therefore in good conscious, I cannot.

But because I refuse to give in to tactics that actually place you in more danger than by just running away, people want to bash me when they don’t really fully understand the dynamics of a situation. If you did, then you wouldn’t be bashing me. Pointing out the flaws in training has to be done or people wouldn’t know that the training is not good for most self defense situations.

Quite a few people from INGO have taken the home defense class and there weren’t any bad comments. These people have room to talk only because they have taken our training and have met me personally.

His "full body jab" video is almost comical.

I don't know anything about the instructor of the course discussed but I can tell you that the Jab video is a poor example of combat-effective skills. Punching is a learned skill that requires months to years to master.

Most people cannot punch even after years of training. That is why it takes several punches to get the job done, IF they get it done. Bruce Lee had a one inch punch and I don’t see you making fun of him. Truth is that he was simply rediscovering something that had been around for hundreds of years. Just because you all don’t understand something, doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. Sadly, most of you will never get up off your butts and try it out. Rather, you continue to stroke your own egos by sitting here bashing me. I am a doer and not a talker. I’ve put thousands of hours of training time in so I have a much better leg to stand on than probably 99% of you here.

“Are you going to dramatically fly backwards for him?”

Until you are holding the bag, please refrain from childish comments. I will be more than happy to let you hold the bag and then I expect you to come back here and submit a formal apology.
The most difficult thing to do is to learn how to punch and kick effectively. And, most people stink at it and that is why you can learn to “take” their punches. What we do is not flashy, but it works. And that is why I don’t use any other method of punching. I’m not about “fighting” someone. I want to do as little as possible with optimal results and this jab is more powerful than most punches in boxing, MMA, Krav Maga, etc. When I find something that is better, I will be teaching it regardless of what it is.

“Really though, only if he hits it hard enough. I want to see what the technique looks like at full speed. With a pad it should be tolerable.”

Yeah, it is tolerable… but it still sucks. Are you willing to hold the bag to find out Stop on by the store from 8am-5:30pm and sign a waiver form and you can hold the bag. We will get your INGO user id on camera so people know who you are and we will tape the entire thing. And if you’re not willing to stop by, then don’t talk about this topic which you know nothing or little about. When should I expect to see some of you? My guess is… you won’t come by because you might just be wrong and will be embarrassed in front of your so called peers.

You see people; it is your ego keeping you from learning something of value here. There are two kinds of people… Those who bash what they don’t understand. And those who “bash” because they fully understand what is going on. Unfortunately, most people fall under the first category because they don’t/won’t train realistically. I’m not afraid to stay the course and take ridicule because one day you might and I say might see the light.

“So... I just watched this video. If his claims were true, he would be a boxing champion. His claims seem odd. In a properly executed boxing punch, the power comes right from the ground through your entire body in somewhat the same manner he describes (though at speed, with power instead of a push). Yet, very strong, very skilled boxers exchange full-power shots for 16 rounds without either going to the hospital. What is the secret these boxers are missing?”

Simply put, boxing is a sport and they are not “real effective” at hitting or the fight would be over very quickly. Boxers are missing the body dynamics I am using. If they were to make a slight change in body alignment, then fights wouldn’t last long at all and boxing wouldn’t have the following that it does. How many people would go to a paid fight that lasts 10 seconds?
Most of you are quick to make comments based upon pure ignorance. Yet you believe that you can get your gun out in a fight, hit, and immediately reduce your threat. And you don’t see the reality that it probably isn’t going to happen? Not to mention the insanity of the basic principles of most defensive handgun tactics…

The real hacks are those who sit in comfort in their chairs behind the monitor bashing us when they don’t really have any idea what we do or how we are different. If you cannot understand the basic flaws in most training, then you are probably going to fail the real world situations and continue to believe things that are just not so. The hacks train with people with impressive credentials and then think they know something because they have taken training.

Those of us who are willing to step out of our comfort zones to learn something that may go against what we were taught are the ones who have the right mindset. A lot of trainers have an LE background and it is no secret that most LEO’s cannot shoot well. Yet somehow they are qualified to teach you how to defend yourself with a handgun. Just because someone has a LE OR Military background doesn’t mean that they are qualified to teach anything.

Most of you have criticized my handgun knowledge, unarmed skills, and now my knife skills… hmmm…. I guess that you know more about all of this than me. Interesting… and you call me the hack? Most of you probably cannot throw a half-ass effective punch yet have the nerve to criticize me… You guys are just silly.

I have trained students from just about every big name school out there, people with LE and military experience and they have learned a lot from me. In fact, I just got teaching PPO’s/EP and LEO’s in the Dallas area on church security and they learned a lot from me and are asking me to come back. Not to mention having been in SWAT and USCCA magazines. Just over two weeks ago I trained two EP guys with a high profile client, and they did research on my company and chose to train with us over other trainers. And… beginning on June 10[SUP]th[/SUP] I’m going to have my own show on a well-established YouTube show with over 2 million viewers per month. In addition, I have people who are asking about becoming an instructor of ours from around the globe. Not too bad for a hack…

Here is where I tell you that we have a 100% MBG yet I haven’t seen most of you in training simply because you have your uninformed opinion. So, do you really have any leg to stand on when it comes to any of this? No, you don’t. And most of you won’t take any action other than to continue to talk crap without experiencing our training and that’s exactly why I don’t waste my time on discussion forums any more. All I do on forums any more is post classes and let you all continue to live in your own little world. Those who are interested in actually learning will come and training of regardless of what most of the keyboard experts here have to say. What I say makes sense to some people. Usually people who are willing to let go of their ego and are more concerned about what works and what doesn’t.

I have provided enough information on YT for free that should make you question your training. Yet most of you are too full of yourself to receive the information I have given you freely. You would rather argue things than to train on them and figure them out.

I only have something to offer you if you are willing to learn. What we do is not feel good training. If you feel good after the training then we have done something wrong.
To those of you who know that something is missing in training, then come and see us. To the rest of you, keep doing what you are doing… After all, it is your life on the line. I hope that you are right…

So on 5/22/14, with genuine interest in getting together, I replied with the following in the thread:

I believe the bolded sections above were in response to me. I quoted the rest because it appeared relevant.

I rarely refuse an invitation. I will accept this invitation and hold the pad. I am happy to have it video taped. I can arrange to bring a camera myself. I want to make a few statements and conditions first:

1. I agree. I am ignorant. I am not a martial artist, or a boxer, or anything remotely similar. I don't have any significant experience. You'll see no claims of knowledge from me anywhere that I recall.

2. Because of number 1, I don't think you'll find too many criticisms from me in the thread. Everything I asked was an honest question. When it comes to punching, I tend to think of boxers as the experts. I am genuinely interested in Thai Jitsu and its origins, as I've never heard of it. That's not surprising, as I've probably not heard of many martial arts.

3. If I come out, it needs to be on a weekend. I work day-time hours on week days and my work location is too far away to be there before 5:00. If we can do it on a weekend, I'll be happy to come out. Are you referring to the Emerson Ave location mentioned on the website?

4. I will only come out if we can do this with a friendly disposition and a cordial demeanor. I am not interested in coming out if either of us will have a 'something-to-prove' attitude or intends to start an argument. I don't have time for that kind of silliness. If you want to get together and have a friendly discussion/demonstration about your methods, I'm happy to do it.

You mentioned that you came to your beliefs through testing and experience. I am genuinely interested in testing this out and seeing the results. I don't know that I have said anything worthy of an apology. So, you'll likely not get one from me. What you will get is a friendly, interested individual who has no ego or issue coming and seeing the reality of the situation. I will be happy to provide an honest and unbiased (as best I can) account of what I experience. If it hurts, I don't have too much pride to admit it.

You may PM me to work out the timing and details.

Due to the holiday I may be available Monday. I will have to check with some people to be sure. Let me know if you'll be in then. If not, we can arrange a weekend.

I followed up with the following PM to Brian on 5/23/14:

Brian,

Thanks for inviting me out to see you demo your system. Please take note that I was not necessarily criticizing you in the thread and I never claimed to have any knowledge of fighting. I am not a martial artist or anything like that. I am happy to come out and hold the pad, though. I am all for testing and experiencing first-hand. I'd like to keep things friendly and cordial. I'm not interested in an argument. I am just interested in coming out and having a friendly meeting and checking out what you do.

I am not available on week days. Can we do this on a weekend? I responded to you in the thread too:
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ss-indianapolis-june-28th-10.html#post5050041

Please read my response in the thread and we can work out a time. I look forward to meeting you.

Jackson

And this PM on 5/24/14:

Brian,

I also wanted to let you know I will probably be free Monday. I have the day off work. We could do it then. Is your shop open on Monday?

I am not free most other week days in the times you mentioned.

Thanks,

Jackson

Then I posted again in the thread on 6/2/2014:

I sent two PMs and posted in this thread. I never received any ressponse.

Finally, 8 months later on 1/20/2015 Brian responds to my PM with the following:

Hello Jackson,

I am sorry, I just saw this. I haven't been on for quite some time because I've been really busy. Too busy to be on here or any other forum.

Unfortunately we are not open on Monday's and I am only there through the week. I am not mad about anything and I appreciate your willingness to come out. I offered it up, and no one showed up which is what I expected. No hard feelings towards anyone. I'm sure you know how people can be on any forum. If I'm ever free on a Saturday and I'm in Indy, I will let you know. I try not to go there on the weekends unless I have to since I drive there every day!!!


Regards,

Brian

I responded with:

Where are you located on weekends? Perhaps I could come out to you.

He mentions that he offered it up and no one showed up, as he expected. He doesn't acknowledge that I tried both through PM and in the thread which he started to give him the opportunity to demonstrate his techniques, just as he challenged me to do. I never received a response to the last PM. I made one final comment in the thread about our meeting, but nothing ever happened.

So I guess my point is that, just like in this thread, when Brian is challenged, or even just questioned or asked to explain or demonstrate something, he is nowhere to be found. I was very serious about coming out with an open mind and a willingness to see what he was doing. I made every reasonable effort to follow up on the offer to hold the pad (which he made). He predicted that no one would come and do it, and he made that prediction true by not responding to anyone who wanted to come. His remarks to people who challenge him are condescending and negative. He likes to talk about everyone's ignorance instead of explaining why anything he is teaching works (but he's quick to tell us about all the people he's trained).

I want to point out that while I was skeptical, and still am, I never posted anything condescending or rude about his training. I'm only interested in testing and if the test is positive, I'll be a believer. Brian does not appear interested in demonstrating, only pontificating on the superiority of his methods. He said in this thread that:

If you wanted to know if it works, ANY of you could have actually done something by now.

Well I tried to do something and he didn't follow through.

Sorry for the super thread jack. I think the attitude displayed by Brian in some of the above comments is pertinent to the decision to train with him. So I'm posting it. I would also note that a friend of mine did attend one of Brian's Home Defense courses. I don't believe any knife or combatives was covered. I believe he mentioned that most of what Brian was teaching wasn't bad. He didn't say it was earth shattering either. So I'm not saying anything that Brian teaches is bad, good, right, or wrong. I haven't seen it. I'm saying I question his attitude and willingness to follow through on things he says.

 

[Coach]

Jackson you should have been a lawyer.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Jackson you should have been a lawyer.

He did a fine job indeed! Having reviewed the entire body of posts Brian has made on INGO from the beginning to date, I feel comfortable saying that he has left no stone unturned.

 

[cobber]

I suppose having the armed congregants carrying personal liability insurance would still leave the insurance co. involved since the congregation authorized them to carry, but liability is a double edged sword with negligence including acts of omission too. What were the criteria for authorizing individuals--ie prior LEO/mil experience; updated professional training?

Sorry late here. If the church permitted individuals to carry in church that's a liability issue for the church. If the church didn't "know", then the individuals would have been individually liable and the church would be off the hook.

The real issue was the church wanted to train members to respond in the event of an incident at the church school. That would have to be a positive act by the church, or else the carriers would have been exposed to level 5 or 6 felony charges. That's where the insurance carrier freaked out and simply dropped the church.

The plan was for very very thorough vetting and group training, which obviously isn't required under the law to carry a handgun. But the insurers would rather have a mass shooting than a well-planned tactical response. I was astonished but not surprised.



So, the only way for the church in question to have an armed team was for the church not to sanction an armed team.

Once the church gave a green light, as to either the school or the church, the insurance carrier freaked.

And any members carrying would exercise force at their own risk...

 

[Pyroponce]

Are there spots still available for the April conference? My pastor is super busy and I don't want to force him to to research and consider this conference if you're sold out.

 

[Twangbanger]

Just looked at this thread & scratched my head with all the stuff about "holding pads." (I thought lawyers stood around with yellow pads in their hands all day? ).

But seriously, I have a question. Can any attorneys clarify whether it's against the law to carry in church, if the church has a school? What kind of school are we talking about? I'm interested in the specific code involved, and what it is about a school on the premises that transforms the church from private property where carry is allowed, to a quasi-public entity where you're committing a crime for CCH. Are you telling me a licensed CCH'er who attends a Sunday church service at a church with a school on the premises, is unwittingly committing something like a felony?

It has been hinted at on this thread, but nobody has definitively nailed this down. Thanks everyone...