Carry (OC/CC) at a shooting range

[bwframe]

I'm not taking a side on this, but I will offer some insight:

With all due respect to you and me, there are some real sloppy gun handlers out there, dangerously sloppy gun handlers. Often these folks have some real difficulty with "getting it" committing dangerous actions over and over. Some of these folks would totally surprise you with their firearms knowledge, yet point a gun at you, themselves and everyone around without a second thought.

I don't agree with making rules to protect us from the dangerous gun handlers, but I totally understand why it is done.

 

[Kedric]

To my way of thinking, part of why we go to ranges (those of us who don't have friends with land or other access to private ranges) is to train, to develop and hone our abilities so that when those skills are needed, we have faith and confidence in our ability to use them. If they refuse us the ability to practice and train.... what's the point of going there?

 

[GuyRelford]

Again, you say these things that I would highly dispute. Please show some sort of evidence that states that most people at a shooting range are untrained and new.

If they are new, I doubt they're carrying yet. If they are not responsible, it is the range's job to eject them

Forgive me, but that's idiotic. We're supposed to kick out all the new shooters? Exactly how would anyone gain experience? A much more reasonable approach for new shooters is to give them a supervised shooting environment that is safe for both them and everyone around them. That's how we designed our rules.

I'm at ECPR every day that it's open, and I can tell you from personal observation that we get a LOT of new shooters. And we love having them - because part of our job is training new shooters and attracting new people to shooting.

But, as a public range with a lot of beginners using the range every weekend, we have to acknowledge that not all of them can safely unholster and holster a loaded gun. And it would be a nightmare to enforce a "you can carry but you can't draw" rule, because the RSOs already have plenty to keep their eye on without having to worry about someone sneaking a pistol out of it's holster. And as has been said, most people want to shoot their carry guns. In fact - this may be a suprise to some INGOers, but a lot of people only have one gun. So carrying but not unholstering isn't feasible in most situations.

So we have a no holstered pistols policy. That's not "banning guns." It's a pistol range, for crying out loud. Everyone has a gun.

And as a chief range safety officer (I've been a certified RSO for 14 years), and as the guy who pays thousands of dollars in liability insurance premiums, and the guy who will watch his entire operation fold into bankruptcy the FIRST time someone gets hurt at the range, it's my prerogative to set the range rules. If you don't like them, I respect your decision to shoot elsewhere. When you are running your own range, and you're the one paying the insurance premiums, and your financial neck is on the line, you can decide on your own rules.

And I've also gotta say that I'm a little surprised that this is the reaction I get to donating a free afternoon of shooting to INGO - as well as supplying the extra RSOs it took to hold the event - at my expense. Whining over our rules? Please.

 

[bigg cheese]

just out of curiosity, if one can't draw from a holster, then how can one prepare for a defensive encounter? I find it a big difference to be able to hold a gun, taking time to aim, than instead drawing for a firing exercise. I know you should practice unloaded at home first, but you can't indefinitely separate those two exercises (drawing, and shooting) without sacrificing your quality of training.

 

[GuyRelford]

just out of curiosity, if one can't draw from a holster, then how can one prepare for a defensive encounter? I find it a big difference to be able to hold a gun, taking time to aim, than instead drawing for a firing exercise. I know you should practice unloaded at home first, but you can't indefinitely separate those two exercises (drawing, and shooting) without sacrificing your quality of training.

That's quite true - and why I teach a Personal Protection course that is heavily focused on drawing from concealment and engaging targets quickly. I acknowledge, however, that there are limited opportunities to practice drawing and firing on your own at public ranges.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Forgive me, but that's idiotic. We're supposed to kick out all the new shooters? Exactly how would anyone gain experience? A much more reasonable approach for new shooters is to give them a supervised shooting environment that is safe for both them and everyone around them. That's how we designed our rules.

I'm at ECPR every day that it's open, and I can tell you from personal observation that we get a LOT of new shooters. And we love having them - because part of our job is training new shooters and attracting new people to shooting.

But, as a public range with a lot of beginners using the range every weekend, we have to acknowledge that not all of them can safely unholster and holster a loaded gun. And it would be a nightmare to enforce a "you can carry but you can't draw" rule, because the RSOs already have plenty to keep their eye on without having to worry about someone sneaking a pistol out of it's holster. And as has been said, most people want to shoot their carry guns. In fact - this may be a suprise to some INGOers, but a lot of people only have one gun. So carrying but not unholstering isn't feasible in most situations.

So we have a no holstered pistols policy. That's not "banning guns." It's a pistol range, for crying out loud. Everyone has a gun.

And as a chief range safety officer (I've been a certified RSO for 14 years), and as the guy who pays thousands of dollars in liability insurance premiums, and the guy who will watch his entire operation fold into bankruptcy the FIRST time someone gets hurt at the range, it's my prerogative to set the range rules. If you don't like them, I respect your decision to shoot elsewhere. When you are running your own range, and you're the one paying the insurance premiums, and your financial neck is on the line, you can decide on your own rules.

And I've also gotta say that I'm a little surprised that this is the reaction I get to donating a free afternoon of shooting to INGO - as well as supplying the extra RSOs it took to hold the event - at my expense. Whining over our rules? Please.

Please show me where I said that you should kick out all the new shooters. I re-read everything I've said so far, and I don't see that anywhere.

New shooters should be trained and assisted where needed. They've got a gun, that's not something you should toy with. Your range does right in training new shooters to be responsible. I never, ever said to kick them out.

Now, if a new shooter is intimidated that the guy next to him is carrying on his hip, that's too damn bad. Just like it's too damn bad that the sheep sitting next to me in a restaraunt finds my gun terrifying (example).

New shooters are probably not going to be CC/OC at a range. They are more likely to be shooting their first gun(s), and have them in the proper downrange and safe positions.

The reaction is coming from you, a supposed 2a supporter, that disallows gun owners to carry. As you said earlier, we shouldn't be fighting each other on this - But you carry that one quality of the people we are fighting against - Prohibition of carry weapons. Yeah you support guns, shooting, etc... but when you ban carrying, that's a problem in some people's eyes.

It's not idiotic to kick out irresponsible people (sweeping the range with their firearm, pointing at people, etc.) That's what I meant when I said it's the range's job to kick irresponsible people out.

 

[rhino]

Here is something I posted in the other topic before I realized this topic was here:

Originally Posted by Flyguy
When I was LEO we had range training four times a year. As LEO we were to unload in our car or before ariving. We were not permitted to carry a loaded wepon to the range. Ammo was supplied at the range and we had to clear and clean our weapons before leaving the range.

So don't feel too butt hurt here.

We see that it's not uncommon. It doesn't change that many of us find such practices to be illogical (at best) and do not truly enhance safety. Allow me to share some of my feelings (not original):

• Unloaded guns are useless.
• Cold ranges either overtly or subconsciously promote the error that unloaded guns are somehow safer than loaded guns. This leads to a belief that unloaded guns can be handled in a different way than loaded guns. This mentality has led to tragedy more than once.

 

[GuyRelford]

It's not idiotic to kick out irresponsible people (sweeping the range with their firearm, pointing at people, etc.) That's what I meant when I said it's the range's job to kick irresponsible people out.

I agree with that part.

My only motivation is to keep everyone safe. For a public range with a lot of beginners, our rules are our best attempt to do that.

Again - if you don't like our rules, I respect your decision to shoot elsewhere. With that, I'm done here.

Guy

 

[Concerned Citizen]

just out of curiosity, if one can't draw from a holster, then how can one prepare for a defensive encounter? I find it a big difference to be able to hold a gun, taking time to aim, than instead drawing for a firing exercise. I know you should practice unloaded at home first, but you can't indefinitely separate those two exercises (drawing, and shooting) without sacrificing your quality of training.

You can start off by drawing from your holster at home, every day, for 10-20 minutes. Draw, put it back. Draw, put it back. Draw, put it back. Place your left hand on the wall, and draw with your right, placing the barrel at the same place every single time against the wall where it will be exactly in front of your line of sight. Do it often enough that it becomes natural. Then do it some more. Then do it EVERY SINGLE DAY OVER & OVER.

Then, you can find a buddy that has 10 acres that is not competely flat, & you can practice your "Quick Draw & Shoot", if that's what your in to. Don't have any buddy's? Post on INGO that you want to shoot and there are lots of people here that have land that would invite you over, because they love shooting with other people!

If I remember correctly, the Eagle Creek Pistol Range wasn't always open to the public, So it's not like we've lost anything recently. If you have a range that allows shooting from a holster, fantastic. If not than IMPROVISE!

 

[finity]

While I agree that private range owners have the Right to set & enforce their own rules I still have the Right to give them my opinion on those rules.

I think that to ban carry of guns at any range is hypocritical. Just as I think it's hypocritical to ban carry guns at a gun store.

Both of those establishments are in business to make money off of gun owners (or would-be gunowners). To say "I'll let you give me your gun-related money but I will restrict the manner in which you carry your gun because I don't think that most people are safe with those guns" is just a bit removed from those who would ban all guns because "I don't think most people are safe with those guns". Actually I think it is worse since you are willing to make money off of an act that you think is inherently unsafe.

Gun stores & ranges are places where you would expect to be welcomed while (safely) carrying a gun. If not there then where? If gun businesses don't feel safe allowing people to carry a gun in a holster then we absolutely can't complain when other non-gun related businesses restrict carry at their stores, as well.

Either show support for the 2A that allows you to make money or get out of the 2A related business.

Carrying a gun in a holster & then removing it when you are ready to shoot it is NOT UNSAFE. I've done it many times & have never pointed my gun at anyone in the process.

Banning the carry of guns in a holster won't make those who are going to be unsafe be any less so.

OTOH, I have no problem with you ejecting someone who has PROVEN through their actions that they actually are unsafe. I can even understand the potential for unsafe actions when someone tries to do a "quick draw". If the range is not set up properly for that then I can understand not allowing it but to ban the act of simply carrying a gun in a holster just makes no sense to me.

 

[hookedonjeep]

If I go to a gun shop / range, I am carrying my loaded sidearm. If they don't allow it, I will not patronize their establishment, like any other....

 

[mk2ja]

We see that it's not uncommon. It doesn't change that many of us find such practices to be illogical (at best) and do not truly enhance safety. Allow me to share some of my feelings (not original):

• Unloaded guns are useless.
• Cold ranges either overtly or subconsciously promote the error that unloaded guns are somehow safer than loaded guns. This leads to a belief that unloaded guns can be handled in a different way than loaded guns. This mentality has led to tragedy more than once.

Very good point. I'd not realized that, but you are absolutely correct: it can condition people to believe that "unloaded" firearms are safe.

I agree with that part.

My only motivation is to keep everyone safe. For a public range with a lot of beginners, our rules are our best attempt to do that.

Again - if you don't like our rules, I respect your decision to shoot elsewhere. With that, I'm done here.

Guy

I realize Guy said he was done here, but maybe somebody can clarify for me what exactly the rule at ECPR was regarding carrying—is it "no carry at all"? Or just "no *loaded* carry AND no drawing from a holster"? I've never been there, so I'm unfamiliar with it.

The only time I've been to a range where I couldn't carry was the Appleseed I attended and when I was an RO at the GSSF in June 2010. Appleseed said "no carry at all" while GSSF stipulated that if it was on my hip, it had to be unloaded with the slide locked back. (I complied with both.)

 

[youngda9]

My range does not allow "draw and shoot" type drills. I can practice that at home so it's fine with me...safer that way also.

 

[eldirector]

I realize Guy said he was done here, but maybe somebody can clarify for me what exactly the rule at ECPR was regarding carrying—is it "no carry at all"? Or just "no *loaded* carry AND no drawing from a holster"? I've never been there, so I'm unfamiliar with it.

Eagle Creek Pistol Range

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]2. EXCEPT ON A DESIGNATED FIRING LINE, CUSTOMERS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE LOADED FIREARMS ANYWHERE ON THE PREMISES OF EAGLE CREEK PISTOL RANGE, INCLUDING THE PARKING LOT.[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[melensdad]

Yet again I am humbled at the privilege to have my backyard as a range.

To answer the question, my thoughts are that I would not visit such a range.

Ditto on both.

I do attend SOME public ranges for social/shooting events but if I find a particularly unfriendly range it is a range to which I will not return a second time. If I know in advance that it is an unfriendly range then I probably would simply avoid the event entirely.

 

[mk2ja]

Eagle Creek Pistol Range

2. EXCEPT ON A DESIGNATED FIRING LINE, CUSTOMERS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE LOADED FIREARMS ANYWHERE ON THE PREMISES OF EAGLE CREEK PISTOL RANGE, INCLUDING THE PARKING LOT.

Thanks. Sounds like it's the same as California: keep it unloaded in your holster and with the magazine ready in your mag holster or pocket. That is the best way I can think of to stay within their rules while being the most ready for dealing with some sort of bad-guy incident.

Of course, that still leaves people to dispute whether rights are being supported or oppressed and whether it subconsciously trains people to treat loaded and "unloaded" firearms differently.

As for me, I would have used that type of "no loaded firearms" range only as a beginner. Once I became more aware of social issues and so forth, I'd just move on to another range with different rules. No big deal to me, I reckon. Seems fair that everybody understands the ranges can make the rules they want and the shooters can choose the ranges they want.

 

[eldirector]

Thanks. Sounds like it's the same as California: keep it unloaded in your holster and with the magazine ready in your mag holster or pocket. That is the best way I can think of to stay within their rules while being the most ready for dealing with some sort of bad-guy incident.

Follow the link and read the rest of the rules. Can't be holstered, either. As per policy, firearms must be unloaded and made safe (slide back, cylinder open) before pulling into the parking lot, and cased/contained to transport away from the firing line.

Essentially, LTCH holders must follow the same rules as un-licensed handgun owners. Seems to be the lowest common denominator.

Just for comparison, I checked Marion County FG's rules:
http://www.indyrange.org/media/Range Rules 2011-01-04.pdf

5.17. Drawing from a holster and firing is not allowed.
5.21. All uncased guns must have the actions open and be completely unloaded at any time the line is cold.

For 5.21, I would assume a holstered handgun is considered "cased"?

And then DCC:
http://www.dccsafety.com/Rules.pdf

12. Load and unload only on the firing line, and only when the line is “hot”.
13. Case and uncase gun only on the firing line, and only when the line is “hot”.

Once again, I assume case==holster. No explicit mention of "drawing", but the rules for regarding muzzles and safe directions would make drawing off-limits.

It also appears that "public" ranges (like Eagle Creek) will have more restrictive rules than "private" ranges (like MCFG and DCC). Just an observation. TFT's comments about "inexperienced shooters" make sense in that context. I'm sure Eagle Creek see MANY more than a private club.

 

[ATM]

Some pools have rules and lifeguards. Some have none.
Some allow diving and some do not.
Not all swimmers are equally capable or even attend the pool for the same reasons.
Some swimmers would be fine regardless while others won't attend a pool that allows or forbids a certain element of water recreation or training.
Others will endure what they don't need or desire just to partake of a certain event with others who very well may benefit from certain restrictions or a more watchful eye.

Until one is forced to attend and disarmed, there really is no infringement on one's carry rights except for the "right" to be there or not.

I have my preferences and get to make my own choices. Property owners have their preferences and get to make their own choices.
Ain't America great?

(Of course, by using the pool analogy, I do realize that some of us are only fit for a lake.)

...And I've also gotta say that I'm a little surprised that this is the reaction I get to donating a free afternoon of shooting to INGO - as well as supplying the extra RSOs it took to hold the event - at my expense. Whining over our rules? Please.

Try not to take it personally, your donation and the efforts of all involved are appreciated. Thanks.
Everyone was free to partake or abstain from the event offered for their own reasons.

Discussing personal rule preferences at ranges is simply a separate topic.

 

[indytechnerd]

The other thing to think about in regards to ECPR is they're not just a public range, they're more a city range that allows the public when the city is not using it. I'm sure that a good chunk of the property's rules are dictated by the city.

To Guy,
Thanks again for the weekend shoot, and don't think this thread is meant to disparage TFT (at least I hope it isn't).

 

[eldirector]

To Guy,
Thanks again for the weekend shoot, and don't think this thread is meant to disparage TFT (at least I hope it isn't).

Certainly not MY intent. I'm just getting the conversation out of the OC thread, and wrapping my head around what ranges have which rules.

Guy, TFT, and Eagle Creek have certainly offered a LOT to the community!