Can I SBR a MP5?

[Goober135]

3 Lug mount.

Not saying you're wrong, but it doesnt look like it has any threads on it.

Essentially, we're both right. Standard 3-Lug mounts are not threaded and take special non-thread on silencers as you mentioned. However, SwarfWorks makes a special "dual purpose" 3-Lug adapter that can be used how you said, or can also take threaded silencers.

You simply unscrew the front part of the 3-Lug and BLAMO! you've got a threaded adapter.

 

[sepe]

If someone can mechanically/physically do it, then you can get it SBR'd and have it approved in Indiana.

And if you EVER get the chance to fire a REAL MP5...do it. And then do it again and again and again...

-J-

My brother and I rented one at Midwest in Elkhart. It was the MP5SD. That thing was too much fun. That is on my list if I can ever find the cash.

 

[ryknoll3]

My brother and I rented one at Midwest in Elkhart. It was the MP5SD. That thing was too much fun. That is on my list if I can ever find the cash.

Same here. That gun is a ton of fun.

 

[Ridgeway]

I'll go ahead & be the one to open the giant can of worms here and say no you can't- unless you comply with 18 USC 922(r).

Yes, many people have gone the SBR route with GSG-5s. The ATF will approve your form 1. But just because they will approve it and others have done it does not make it legal. You must add compliance parts to be legal. My survey of the issue is that few if any comply with the law when converting the GSGs.

I purchased a GSG-5PK with the intention of making it an SBR. Before submitting the forms I intensively researched the issue and determined that it could not legally be done without complying with the aforesaid statute. I know I am in the minority on this issue. However, I extensively researched and examined the applicable statues and precedent. As an attorney with experience in statutory interpretation I was not and am not comfortable converting a GSG.

In the end I decided to sell the GSG and purchased a MP5SD6 rifle to supplement my 9mm SBR MP5 clone.

.02, not legal advice or licensed in Indiana, etc...

 

[ctbreitwieser]

I'll go ahead & be the one to open the giant can of worms here and say no you can't- unless you comply with 18 USC 922(r).

Yes, many people have gone the SBR route with GSG-5s. The ATF will approve your form 1. But just because they will approve it and others have done it does not make it legal. You must add compliance parts to be legal. My survey of the issue is that few if any comply with the law when converting the GSGs.

I purchased a GSG-5PK with the intention of making it an SBR. Before submitting the forms I intensively researched the issue and determined that it could not legally be done without complying with the aforesaid statute. I know I am in the minority on this issue. However, I extensively researched and examined the applicable statues and precedent. As an attorney with experience in statutory interpretation I was not and am not comfortable converting a GSG.

In the end I decided to sell the GSG and purchased a MP5SD6 rifle to supplement my 9mm SBR MP5 clone.

.02, not legal advice or licensed in Indiana, etc...

Shouldnt any 922r parts be put on by ATI before they can even be imported? Im not sure how the "sporting purposes only" rule applies to .22's, but I would think in order for the GSG to be imported and sold it would already have to be 922r compliant. Much like a WASR or something similar.

 

[3point5]

Shouldnt any 922r parts be put on by ATI before they can even be imported? Im not sure how the "sporting purposes only" rule applies to .22's, but I would think in order for the GSG to be imported and sold it would already have to be 922r compliant. Much like a WASR or something similar.

IIRC 922r doesnt apply to rimfires...

IANAL

 

[Goober135]

I'll go ahead & be the one to open the giant can of worms here and say no you can't- unless you comply with 18 USC 922(r).

Yes, many people have gone the SBR route with GSG-5s. The ATF will approve your form 1. But just because they will approve it and others have done it does not make it legal. You must add compliance parts to be legal. My survey of the issue is that few if any comply with the law when converting the GSGs.

I purchased a GSG-5PK with the intention of making it an SBR. Before submitting the forms I intensively researched the issue and determined that it could not legally be done without complying with the aforesaid statute. I know I am in the minority on this issue. However, I extensively researched and examined the applicable statues and precedent. As an attorney with experience in statutory interpretation I was not and am not comfortable converting a GSG.

In the end I decided to sell the GSG and purchased a MP5SD6 rifle to supplement my 9mm SBR MP5 clone.

.02, not legal advice or licensed in Indiana, etc...

Could you explain this more? How is SBRing a GSG different from SBRing an AR-15 assuming you fill out paperwork and get the gun engraved? I'm confused...

 

[samot]

IIRC 922r doesnt apply to rimfires...

IANAL

Correct !

 

[3point5]

Correct !

take this fwiw....

 

[ctbreitwieser]

take this fwiw....

Great post. The rules cant get anymore clear than that. Rep'd

 

[RobbLG]

In the end I decided to sell the GSG and purchased a MP5SD6 rifle to supplement my 9mm SBR MP5 clone.

This... Umarex did a good job with the MP5 rimfires... They made up for dropping the ball with the Colt M4 rimfire...

 

[Ridgeway]

Shouldnt any 922r parts be put on by ATI before they can even be imported? Im not sure how the "sporting purposes only" rule applies to .22's, but I would think in order for the GSG to be imported and sold it would already have to be 922r compliant. Much like a WASR or something similar.

No, the GSG products are to my knowledge entirely German/foreign made w/o sufficient US parts to be complaint.

 

[Ridgeway]

Great post. The rules cant get anymore clear than that. Rep'd

The problem lies in the fact that a letter from the ATF is merely the ATF's opinion on the matter. It is not law. A judge is certainly not bound to follow the opinion rendered.

Moreover, ATF has issued seemingly contradictory opinions @ times on issues such as 922(r)'s applicability to SBR's.

Could you explain this more? How is SBRing a GSG different from SBRing an AR-15 assuming you fill out paperwork and get the gun engraved? I'm confused...

The difference is that most if not all AR's will already be compliant. The parts, including the recievers, are predominantly made in the USA. Thus no issue arises.

A GSG could certainly be made compliant if you can find/add sufficient US parts, no different than the multitude of legal MP5 clone conversions. You can find plenty of compliance parts on the internet for such weapons. However, the vast majority of people appear to avoid doing so.

Again, I'll reiterate, that the above is merely my opinion on it, but proceed @ your own risk. In the absence of controlling precedent specifically/exactly on point, the issue is left to interpretation. It is certainly possible I'm wrong. However, I chose not to take any risks in this realm and prefer a conservative approach.

take this fwiw....

One could draw different conclusions from that letter. First, the letter may be correct, however it also leaves much unsaid. It does not explicitly address the application of 922(r) to .22's or SBR's. It merely states that a folding stock & other parts may be added. The letter avoids the second issue of whether those parts can be added without adding US made parts. Certainly you could do so, if you add sufficient compliance parts. But whether the end gun will be legal with 100% foreign parts is not discussed. I see the argument in favor of exempting .22's. The question remains the interplay when the item becomes a SBR.

IIRC 922r doesnt apply to rimfires...

IANAL

I am unaware of any precedent supporting that statement. If someone can point to any support I'll certainly admit my error. But as it stands, and I've heard this assertion before, 922(r) neither explicitly provides for an exemption, in particular for a .22 SBR, nor does any other statute I've seen.

 

[Goober135]

So essentially the main reason it is "iffy" to SBR as GSG MP5 is because of US import laws and the fact that the gun is German made? What parts of the gun would need to be changed to make it 100% compliant? Although I'm still not sure what you said is entirely correct, I would much rather be safe than sorry.

 

[Ridgeway]

So essentially the main reason it is "iffy" to SBR as GSG MP5 is because of US import laws and the fact that the gun is German made? What parts of the gun would need to be changed to make it 100% compliant? Although I'm still not sure what you said is entirely correct, I would much rather be safe than sorry.

MP5 922r Compliant Parts


The issue really is, if a foreign .22 w/certain features (detachable mag, flash suppressor, etc.) is made a SBR, does it then become non-sporting. If so, then it must be 922(r) compliant. If you read the operable statutes, the answer is yes, unless someone can point to an exemption for .22's.

 

[ryknoll3]

SBR or Title I has no bearing on whether or not it's non-sporting. Basically, in the case of a full-size gun, a pistol can be imported with "assault-weapon" features. A rifle can not. If the rifle has "assault-weapon" features it can not be imported. If you take a pistol that has "assault-weapon" parts and turn it into a rifle, whether SBR or Title I (16"+ barrel) it must comply with the statutes. You need to add in US parts or replace foreign parts to make it predominately a US gun.

In the example of an imported MP5 pistol, you have to add US parts and replace a few original parts with US parts to make it compliant. The easiest way to do this is to add:
US Buttstock
US Forearm

Replace with:
US Cocking Handle
US Trigger
US Sear
US Hammer

This gets you your six US parts and makes it compliant.

The main thing is though, there is no statutory difference between an SBR and a Title I gun in relation to 922(r)

 

[ryknoll3]

Here's my semi-auto MP5 clone SBR. Just got the stamp back last week. 5 months. Should have a SWR Octane 9 for it in a month or so as well. =)

 

[Goober135]

So a GSG MP5 is 100% imported? Meaning I would need to replace 6 parts with US made parts? How much would that cost? The reason I picked the GSG in the first place was because of it's cheap price...

 

[ryknoll3]

Another thought on this: Umarex makes the HK 416 .22 clone rifle and it's imported. This rifle would not be allowed to be imported in a centerfire version because it's "non-sporting use" features. Doesn't that imply an exemption from 922(r) for rimfire? It has a collapsible stock, pistol grip and flash hider. That would normally prohibit it from import.

Someone needs to cite where the conversion to SBR would change the rifle from meeting the "sporting purpose" test to failing it.

 

[jdg0724]

You can definitely SBR one. I made mine into an SBR a little over a year ago. I have a can on mine and I chose to get the foldable stock on mine opposed to the collapsible stock. This gun is a blast to use and also a great host. They look amazing if you put a few mods on them. It is by far my favorite .22. I also have a ISSC MK22 (SCAR style) rifle that is not near as reliable or accurate as the GSG. Its been a great plinking gun for me up to this point. I just recently bought a mount for mine and put a red dot scope on it. If i get the time and can figure out how to post pictures, I will try to get a picture of mine on here. There's definitely a few cool pics of these on this thread.