caliber question

[NIFT]

.40S&W 180gr(990fps): (Penetration/Expansion) Winchester Ranger Talon
Bare Gel: 13.8”/.68”
Through Denim: 14.3”/.70”
Through Heavy Cloth: 13.4”/.64”
Through Wallboard: 13.1”/.66”
Through Plywood: 15.1”/.64”
Through Steel: 17”/.52”
Through Auto Glass: 12”/.61”
Note: other quality .40 S&W 180 gr. rounds have very similar performance.


10mm Norma 170gr(1350fps): (Penetration/Expansion) Norma load FBI tests from 1989.
No credible testing for full power 10mm loads presently.
No demin test at that time.
Bare Gel: 16.4”/.58”
Through Heavy Cloth: 17.8”/.52”
Through Wallboard: 17.2”/.54”
Through Plywood: 16.5”/.57”
Through Steel: 17.9”/.48”
Through Auto Glass: 12.3”/.55”

There is about a 15 year technology gap between these .40S&W and 10mm loads. However, the reduced power 180gr load of 1989 wasn't much different.

10mm 180gr(980fps): (Penetration/Expansion) 1989 FBI load Sierra JHP
Bare Gel: 13.6”/.59”
Through Heavy Cloth: 15.4”/.56”
Through Wallboard: 16.1”/.55”
Through Plywood: 14.3”/.57”
Through Steel: 15.3”/.50”
Through Auto Glass: 12.1”/.52”

There are no recent, reputable tests on 10mm ammunition that I know of--largely because law enforcement agencies, including the FBI, long ago switched to the .40. There is nothing inherently wrong with the 10mm, and, according to Dr. Gary Roberts, the 10mm is superior to the 9mm in sub-guns.

The longer 10mm cartridge necessitates larger magazines, which, in turn, necessitates larger gun grip sizes. Additionally, the high-velocity Norma FBI load required a bit heavier gun (Smith & Wesson 1076) to keep recoil at a reasonable level. And, again, the 10mm has higher pressures (more gun wear), more muzzle blast, more muzzle flash, and more recoil---all of which do nothing to increase performance.

Subsequently, the FBI abandoned the 10mm in favor of the .40, and the .40 has become the cartridge of choice for sidearms in most of the LE community. With the 10mm falling out of favor in LE and not enough demand in the civilian sector, ammunition manufacturers have not devoted effort to upgrade and expand 10mm offerings, and prices are higher.

Again, there is nothing inherently wrong with the 10mm. It is simply that current .40 ammunition outperforms available 10mm ammunition in terminal ballistics, and the .40 mitigates or eliminates other disadvantages of the 10mm.

 

[bk1330]

I would go with the .40s&w in subcompact and the 10mm in fullsize. You will get alot more out of the 10mm in the longer barrel. Just my opinion though. Really you should buy what you want and enjoy either one.

 

[brotherbill3]

It was my understanding (based on reading back then and some more recently) that the FBI initially went to the FULL POWER 10 mm. which was more effective when it hit the target ... but they found that many agents could not qualify. So the developed the 10 "LITE" FBI load ... which S&W then created the .40 to match in a shorter case.

 

[billybob44]

Good Message..

Ahhh, the great mystery of the 10mm. I find it amazing that, according to some experts, the same projectile going faster does "less" in their tests. Oh well, to each their own.
Easy answer is to get the 40 - easier access to ammo, and can be a member of the S&W group (aka Short and Weak).
One of the posts above mentioned the trail gun aspect. Nothing out there matches a 10mm's versatility of use. You can get some DoubleTap stuff and make that thing a fire breating dragon and have something that really will back you up (hogs, dogs, coyote's, 2-legged critters, etc.).
I think it all boils down to the same thing - pick what you LIKE to shoot, and shoot the gun a bunch. Realistically, anything that needs shooting isn't going to be in a good position if you shoot it in the right spot with a quality bullet (i.e., DPX) from a .40, .45, 9mm, etc. Practice and experince with your gun trumps everything else.

For some test that give the .40 S&W the edge over the 10MM does also amaze me.
I recently bought a G20(full size 10MM), and had some buyers remorse after. So I did the next right thing-also bought a Lone Wolf conversion barrel to .40 S&W.
Now I have one of the top performer semi-auto, with the choice of shooting a more "common" caliber.
I think that you could do the same with the G29?
I have, like most all other hand loaders have a load of .40 S&W brass, and am gathering as much of 10MM brass that I can.
Don't sell it short-the 10MM load has the stopping power/energy, just short of the .41 Magnum revolver round. That's 15 in the mag.+1 in the tube of Hog/Dog/most any other North American "Critter" medicine.
This is my on this, but as bigmedicine said, shoot what YOU can shoot best to the target, or COM..Bill.

 

[grizman]

.40S&W 180gr(990fps): (Penetration/Expansion) Winchester Ranger Talon
Bare Gel: 13.8”/.68”
Through Denim: 14.3”/.70”
Through Heavy Cloth: 13.4”/.64”
Through Wallboard: 13.1”/.66”
Through Plywood: 15.1”/.64”
Through Steel: 17”/.52”
Through Auto Glass: 12”/.61”
Note: other quality .40 S&W 180 gr. rounds have very similar performance.


10mm Norma 170gr(1350fps): (Penetration/Expansion) Norma load FBI tests from 1989.
No credible testing for full power 10mm loads presently.
No demin test at that time.
Bare Gel: 16.4”/.58”
Through Heavy Cloth: 17.8”/.52”
Through Wallboard: 17.2”/.54”
Through Plywood: 16.5”/.57”
Through Steel: 17.9”/.48”
Through Auto Glass: 12.3”/.55”

There is about a 15 year technology gap between these .40S&W and 10mm loads. However, the reduced power 180gr load of 1989 wasn't much different.

10mm 180gr(980fps): (Penetration/Expansion) 1989 FBI load Sierra JHP
Bare Gel: 13.6”/.59”
Through Heavy Cloth: 15.4”/.56”
Through Wallboard: 16.1”/.55”
Through Plywood: 14.3”/.57”
Through Steel: 15.3”/.50”
Through Auto Glass: 12.1”/.52”

There are no recent, reputable tests on 10mm ammunition that I know of--largely because law enforcement agencies, including the FBI, long ago switched to the .40. There is nothing inherently wrong with the 10mm, and, according to Dr. Gary Roberts, the 10mm is superior to the 9mm in sub-guns.

The longer 10mm cartridge necessitates larger magazines, which, in turn, necessitates larger gun grip sizes. Additionally, the high-velocity Norma FBI load required a bit heavier gun (Smith & Wesson 1076) to keep recoil at a reasonable level. And, again, the 10mm has higher pressures (more gun wear), more muzzle blast, more muzzle flash, and more recoil---all of which do nothing to increase performance.

Subsequently, the FBI abandoned the 10mm in favor of the .40, and the .40 has become the cartridge of choice for sidearms in most of the LE community. With the 10mm falling out of favor in LE and not enough demand in the civilian sector, ammunition manufacturers have not devoted effort to upgrade and expand 10mm offerings, and prices are higher.

Again, there is nothing inherently wrong with the 10mm. It is simply that current .40 ammunition outperforms available 10mm ammunition in terminal ballistics, and the .40 mitigates or eliminates other disadvantages of the 10mm.

Negative! you are looking at info and bullet designs outdated by nearly twenty years. Look at Double tap or Buffalo bore 180grn Gold dot loads. No 40 load comes close to the expansion and penetration of the 10 full power loads.

If you can quote 15+ year old FBI tests done with 20+ year old bullet designs for the 10mm against one of the best 40 loads ever produced and believe it is a fair test that demonstrates empirical proof of superiority of the 40S&W. You are indeed lost in the land where psychics do not apply.
As another poster stated it is amazing that the same projectile traveling at greater speed expands less and penetrates less! May not be a FBI test but watch the vid and see if you can get a 40 to preform the same! As for over penentration 9's,40's and 45's all overpenetrate too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kptr5OOLOHk

 

[billybob44]

Apples+Oranges...

.40S&W 180gr(990fps): (Penetration/Expansion) Winchester Ranger Talon
Bare Gel: 13.8”/.68”
Through Denim: 14.3”/.70”
Through Heavy Cloth: 13.4”/.64”
Through Wallboard: 13.1”/.66”
Through Plywood: 15.1”/.64”
Through Steel: 17”/.52”
Through Auto Glass: 12”/.61”
Note: other quality .40 S&W 180 gr. rounds have very similar performance.


10mm Norma 170gr(1350fps): (Penetration/Expansion) Norma load FBI tests from 1989.
No credible testing for full power 10mm loads presently.
No demin test at that time.
Bare Gel: 16.4”/.58”
Through Heavy Cloth: 17.8”/.52”
Through Wallboard: 17.2”/.54”
Through Plywood: 16.5”/.57”
Through Steel: 17.9”/.48”
Through Auto Glass: 12.3”/.55”

There is about a 15 year technology gap between these .40S&W and 10mm loads. However, the reduced power 180gr load of 1989 wasn't much different.

10mm 180gr(980fps): (Penetration/Expansion) 1989 FBI load Sierra JHP
Bare Gel: 13.6”/.59”
Through Heavy Cloth: 15.4”/.56”
Through Wallboard: 16.1”/.55”
Through Plywood: 14.3”/.57”
Through Steel: 15.3”/.50”
Through Auto Glass: 12.1”/.52”

There are no recent, reputable tests on 10mm ammunition that I know of--largely because law enforcement agencies, including the FBI, long ago switched to the .40. There is nothing inherently wrong with the 10mm, and, according to Dr. Gary Roberts, the 10mm is superior to the 9mm in sub-guns.

The longer 10mm cartridge necessitates larger magazines, which, in turn, necessitates larger gun grip sizes. Additionally, the high-velocity Norma FBI load required a bit heavier gun (Smith & Wesson 1076) to keep recoil at a reasonable level. And, again, the 10mm has higher pressures (more gun wear), more muzzle blast, more muzzle flash, and more recoil---all of which do nothing to increase performance.

Subsequently, the FBI abandoned the 10mm in favor of the .40, and the .40 has become the cartridge of choice for sidearms in most of the LE community. With the 10mm falling out of favor in LE and not enough demand in the civilian sector, ammunition manufacturers have not devoted effort to upgrade and expand 10mm offerings, and prices are higher.

Again, there is nothing inherently wrong with the 10mm. It is simply that current .40 ammunition outperforms available 10mm ammunition in terminal ballistics, and the .40 mitigates or eliminates other disadvantages of the 10mm.

NIFT, this is all interesting reading-BUT-
To compair two different-mfg. loads-bullet weights/styles+I'm sure powder types, is just data.
If we were to rate one caliber against another we need to have EXACTLY the same components.
Like: Same mfg. brass
Same bullet brand+style
Same primer (can not do-.40=SP-10=LP)
Same brand/type of powder
If we would use the same mfg. of primer (Win./CCI etc.), and load with the SAME powder, to max load data from any of the top brand of bullet/powder mfgs., we will find that the 10MM DOES have a lot more to offer in the power mode.
To me, any other comparisons is just "Apples and Oranges"
Again-JUST my worth..Bill

 

[billybob44]

Simple Minded People..

For ME, I can not get too far into thinking out a comparison.
This is my take on the two calibers:
A .40 S&W-180gr. Max. load= a .38 Special.
A 10MM-180gr. Max. load= a .357 Magnum.
OR if you want to go larger:
A .40 S&W=a .44 Special.
A 10MM=a .44 Magnum.
To me, this describes the differences in the .40 S&W and the 10MM. The cases of both of these loads are similar in diameter, the 10MM just has the "Magnum" case capacity.. Bill.

 

[steve666]

.40 has plenty of pep and ammo variety, price, and availability is much better.

 

[Mike Elzinga]

I also would be skeptical of any test that showed .40 "outperforming" 10mm, as the .40 is a chopped down 10mm at lower pressure with the same bullet.

That being said, if this is your first 10mm and you intend to carry it daily in a "subcompact" I would perhaps caution you to try one first. While they are possible to shoot, it is reserved for real men. 10mm is a pretty awesome cartridge that can be loaded a lot of ways but the commercial defense ammo will be stout, and unless you have some experience with demon powered compact guns, you may regret it.

That said, 10mm is badass and I wholly support its use

as an aside, ammo cost should be considered, but who here really shoots their carry gun a lot? If you look at the price difference for 500 rounds of defense ammo, which is likely a lifetime supply, it should be a small comparison versus the ridiculous power of a 10mm. Also a know several people who run .40 ammo in there 10mm Glocks for practice and match ammo. They make conversion barrels but I have shot several that just used to the stock barrel with no problems.

 

[Powersn130]

I qualified with a perfect score the first time I shot my G26...never could with the 27. If you are looking for accuracy, go with a 26. If you are looking to make a bigger hole go with the 29. But whats it matter if you can't hit the target : )

Well it will probably be getting a ct laser grip as well so accuracy shouldn't be an issue

 

[Powersn130]

Thanks for all the responses guys I'll be gettin the 27 and prolly keep an eye out for a used 10mm in the future only because I think they're BA