Caliber, bullet weight, and pressure: does it matter much anymore?

[blueboxer]

Time for some discussion INGO. I came across this video yesterday and was intrigued. tnoutdoors9 is a well respected YouTube reviewer, and has uploaded hundreds of ammo testing videos. I think his videos are well thought out, and that his testing methods are thorough and fair. In this new video he compares four standard pressure 9mm loads in ballistic gel. The results were as expected, but the analysis of handgun cartridge performance was unexpected (at least to me), when standard pressure and +P loads were compared. A summary of the results are as follows, but please watch the whole video and don't just read and rely on my summary.

45ACP 230 grain--12 different rounds tested
Average penetration: 14"

40S&W 180 grain--10 different rounds tested
Average penetration: 14"

9mm--24 different rounds tested
Average penetration: 14.43"
Average expansion: .573"

9mm +P--number of different rounds unknown
Average penetration: 13.38"
Average expansion: .629"

In light of this information, do any of you have a new view of caliber selection or +P ammo selection? This thread isn't intended to be a .45 v. .40 v. 9mm debate, but rather an evaluation of how far self defense ammunition has progressed, and whether +P rounds are necessary in ANY caliber at this point. I'm sure caliber selection will come into the debate, which is fine, I just don't care to start the usual internet bickering over "size" that has nothing to do with caliber...


[video=youtube;c8gm7ZTkDxc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8gm7ZTkDxc[/video]

 

[TLHelmer]

Very interesting question and informative video.

 

[handgun]

No it doesnt matter really. Different ammo for different jobs.

 

[Leadeye]

Bigger holes going in and out.

 

[AA&E]

There is a thread about the FBI changing over to 9mm side arms on this board. The FBI's studies concluded that the permanent wound channel of differing ammo from .38 caliber through .45 caliber was essentially identical in post mortum examination. Forensic specialists could not tell the difference between a person shot to death with .38 special, 9mm, 44 magnum or a 45 acp. Penetration were all equally sufficient as well because anything beyond 12 to 14 inches was considered over penetration. Therefore the deciding factor ultimately came down to weapon capacity (over all number of rounds) and recoil recovery/timed accuracy. The 9mm won. Personally, I carry a colt compact officers model 1911 45acp. So I have a dog in the fight, but my dog lost.

 

[sliptap]

I love TNOutdoors9. He has some awesome ballistic gel videos for most calibers.

I think +P vs. standard pressure is still something that people need to consider, but definitely becoming a diminishing factor. As the results above prove, in a standard length pistol, it is a difference of expansion vs. penetration. Do you prefer expansion over penetration or vice-versa? I think +P should stick around just for that reason: it is another option/choice so you can choose what you're comfortable with.

To me, the most important part is still shot placement. And even then, that isn't a guarantee...a la this article: Officer Down: The Peter Soulis Incident - Below 100 - LawOfficer.com . Officer Peter Soulis hit his target 22 times with 17 center of mass shots and the bad guy continued to fight. He was carrying a Glock 22 with Ranger SXTs.

Moral of the story: Most new ammo is sufficient and shot placement is king in pistol calibers, but carry a rifle if you know you're going into a firefight.

 

[cosermann]

They perform similar because they are engineered to perform that way within a fuzzy velocity envelope.

I don't care about caliber as long as it's .38/9mm or larger using a modern defensive load and bullet design.

Also I don't consider using +p ammunition unless it's needed for designed performance from a short barrel (i.e. snub nose revolvers, 9/.40 less than 3.5", and .45 less than 4" make me start thinking about +p ammo, although, even then, it's sometimes unnecessary). +P loads may actually penetrate LESS under some circumstances due to rapid penetration having a "parachute" effect.

Bullet weight usually still makes a difference since it's easier to engineer bullets with higher sectional density to penetrate adequately.

 

[danielson]

I think, we are finally to a point where, as long as your using quality defensive ammo, you stand as much chance as the guy using the next quality defensive ammo. Handguns are not great at one shot stops anyway. As has been said a million times, shot placement is key. You can have 12G buck, and if you cant aim the damn thing, and miss, your better off with a 22, well aimed.

I think, these days, its more important to pick the correct handgun for you, than the caliber. Try, try, try... Try all the handguns you can. Once you find the one that just points well for you, and you shoot well, and is the right size for you. CARRY IT....

Basically, I am saying, no... I don't think it matters much anymore.

 

[SpaldingPM]

Holy cow that linked story was intense to read. I absolutely cannot believe that guy took 22 rounds center mass and kept fighting. Thats ridiculous.