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  • Destro

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    Explain again please. Implied powers regarding functions which are part of or details of carrying out enumerated powers are one thing. Pulling s**t out of the spaces between the lines is something entirely different.


    I would also like to know how you defend the notion that the packing of the Supreme Court which in turn permitted some of the most egregious power grabs in history has nothing to do with it. I already understood that you are a statist, but also blind to the obvious?

    I am being genuine and sincere in my reply so please do not take it as some type of sarcastic reply.

    I will use the Louisiana Purchase as my example. It can be argued, with great credit, that it was unconstitutional. Madison and Jefferson, as noble as they were, weaseled their way into buying it anyway. While arguably the implied power was the purchase, the authority of the government to own and administer land is soundly an implied power.

    Bundy's land, however, was not bought, it was ceded by the Mexicans. It would be silly and impractical to think (IMO) that since it is not enumerated, the government cannot accept land ceded to it as conditions of surrender under a proper war. Thus, as the .gov is not prevented from expansion resulting from war, it must be implied. Further implied, as "necessary and proper", is the ability for congress to administer the lands. If the government could not own or administer land, we would have lost all the territory won during the revolutionary war since it was not provided for in the constitution the ability for the .gov to own and administer it. Selling the western territory was the biggest source of income for the continental congress.


    I will not argue the bait and switch land swap was awfully shady, but I think it's (unfortunately) passes muster.


    I never supported any packing of the supreme court in any shape of form. I felt dragging FDR into the conversation served no purpose. I'm not a statist, just because something is wrong or I don't like it, does not make it illegal. I will argue for what is right till im blue in the face, even if I don't agree with it. Just because im here making this argument, does not mean I like it or agree with it on principle.
     

    Manatee

    Shooter
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    Yes, those states with claims west of their effective borders ceded those claims to the federal government, which then provided for settling those territories, which were in turn organized into stated AND THEN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT GOT THE F**K OUT OF THEM WHEN THEY BECAME STATES. Your reading comprehension problems do not reduce the factual content of the history I have addressed.

    You are making it personal. Dickishness is the first sign you've lost the argument.

    It also appears you failed to see the charts in the link I provided. The federal government owns/controls land in each state. I'm sorry if the facts don't agree with your belief system. Perhaps in your next incarnation…..
     

    IndyDave1776

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    I am being genuine and sincere in my reply so please do not take it as some type of sarcastic reply.

    I will use the Louisiana Purchase as my example. It can be argued, with great credit, that it was unconstitutional. Madison and Jefferson, as noble as they were, weaseled their way into buying it anyway. While arguably the implied power was the purchase, the authority of the government to own and administer land is soundly an implied power.

    Bundy's land, however, was not bought, it was ceded by the Mexicans. It would be silly and impractical to think (IMO) that since it is not enumerated, the government cannot accept land ceded to it as conditions of surrender under a proper war. Thus, as the .gov is not prevented from expansion resulting from war, it must be implied. Further implied, as "necessary and proper", is the ability for congress to administer the lands. If the government could not own or administer land, we would have lost all the territory won during the revolutionary war since it was not provided for in the constitution the ability for the .gov to own and administer it. Selling the western territory was the biggest source of income for the continental congress.


    I will not argue the bait and switch land swap was awfully shady, but I think it's (unfortunately) passes muster.


    I never supported any packing of the supreme court in any shape of form. I felt dragging FDR into the conversation served no purpose. I'm not a statist, just because something is wrong or I don't like it, does not make it illegal. I will argue for what is right till im blue in the face, even if I don't agree with it. Just because im here making this argument, does not mean I like it or agree with it on principle.


    I see your point, and it put great strain on Jefferson personally as he wrestled with the fact that congress had authorized offering Napoleon $10M for the port of New Orleans, Napoleon countered with $15M for the whole thing, it was too good a deal to pass up, especially considering that it was more mission creep than arbitrarily going shopping on his own, but he still didn't believe he really had the authority to do it, but just couldn't not do it. It really tied him in knots. I believe he made a good decision, especially given that Napoleon didn't even bite on selling New Orleans only. I don't have a problem with expansion even though it really isn't addressed in the Constitution although one could argue that the port facility was a 'needful building' keeping in mind that a 'building' was most any construct other than a ship, much like most any mechanical device was an 'engine'. The fact that it became an all or nothing deal was unforeseen and while stretching the limits, it was the best decision available at the time, especially given that it did in fact accomplish the task delegated to Jefferson by the congress.

    Likewise, I have no problem with the original acquisition of the Mexican Cession. I have no problem with federal management pending statehood of its constituent parts. I have a major problem finding any authority for the federal ownership of major portions of a state after it has been admitted into the union as a state. It either is a state or it isn't, and if it is mostly a federal playground, at best, it is a state in name only.

    My purpose in dragging FDR into the conversation is that since the court was initially packed under his administration, we have never been able to achieve the balance of power that comes from the court primarily being populated by jurists from administrations past who owe no favors to the present administration and truly serves as a check on legislative and executive power. These days, the Supreme Court all too often serves as a rubber stamp on the blatantly wrong, and that is the foundation of the problem. That arch-enemy of federalism ruling Wickard v. Filburn was decided by a court made up of 8/9 FDR appointees with the predictable results and a long legacy of abuse as a result. As I see it, at this point, the court ceased to be a check on the power of the other two branches effectively denying justice for most people most of the time.

    Last, but not least, the statist remark was excessively harsh and I ask that you accept my apology for it.
     

    IndyDave1776

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    You are making it personal. Dickishness is the first sign you've lost the argument.

    It also appears you failed to see the charts in the link I provided. The federal government owns/controls land in each state. I'm sorry if the facts don't agree with your belief system. Perhaps in your next incarnation…..

    You have signally failed to account for the fact that most all of that federally controlled land in the eastern 2/3 of the country was purchased from private owners after the establishment of the National Forest Service. In other words, you are using completely irrelevant information to make your point. Retroactively purchasing land from private owners is an entirely different (albeit also completely outside the scope of constitutional authority) situation from speaking from both sides of the federal mouth creating new states (which is constitutional) while retaining direct ownership of large portions of those states (which, again, is done without constitutional authority unless it is read from the spaces between the lines).

    Try again.

    Oh, and as for the first line in your previous post, you must experience this on a very regular basis.
     

    Destro

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    I have a major problem finding any authority for the federal ownership of major portions of a state after it has been admitted into the union as a state. It either is a state or it isn't, and if it is mostly a federal playground, at best, it is a state in name only.

    I feel the exact same way. I just can't make a case that it's unconstitutional. What happened to Bundy sucks, it really does, but he had his day in court and lost. The system is tipped in the balance of the .gov, but that's the price for dealing with the devil. Riot shields and tear gas are way over the top, but a bunch of guys who fit the "bitter clinger" cliché running down with AR's and talking a tough talk is far more damaging for all of us than a federal agency executing a court order to carry out a mandate by congress.

    We survived FDR, we will survive Obama.
     

    Destro

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    The quote taken in context does not support your argument. I explained why.

    he was using naturalization as an example as it relates to state sovereignty, the context of the entire opinion revolves around the incorporation powers of congress as it relates to a national bank.
     

    Manatee

    Shooter
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    You have signally failed to account for the fact that most all of that federally controlled land in the eastern 2/3 of the country was purchased from private owners…...Retroactively purchasing land from private owners is an entirely different (albeit also completely outside the scope of constitutional authority) situation from speaking from both sides of the federal mouth creating new states (which is constitutional) while retaining direct ownership of large portions of those states (which, again, is done without constitutional authority unless it is read from the spaces between the lines).

    Try again.

    Methinks you must have experienced a great shock as a child. Fingers with drool on them in the household circuits perhaps?

    Do you not see that you use both sides of the argument, and then exclude it as unconstitutional? There is no arguing with a man with bad synapses.

    Land was acquired by the government in the eastern states prior to the Constitution and subsequently sold or offered in exchange for development (such as homesteads, canals and railroads). If they purchased the land once again for their purposes (military bases, highways, etc.) it is commerce. I doubt that ALL of the land was disposed of by the government in the first place (just another one of your poorly researched facts). The lands of the Lousiana Purchase were no different. Guadalupe-Hidalgo was more confiscation in line with Manifest Destiny than otherwise.

    You've helped established the fact that the US is engaged in land and resource commerce. It is obvious. Prima facie. You tilt at windmills sir.

    There is no water out west that is unaccounted for (2/3 rds of the land mass which you mathematically posted as 1/3 in error).
     
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    IndyDave1776

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    Methinks you must have experienced a great shock as a child. Fingers with drool on them in the household circuits perhaps?

    According to your own previously posted statement, you must perceive yourself to be losing.

    Do you not see that you use both sides of the argument, and then exclude it as unconstitutional? There is no arguing with a man with bad synapses.

    No, I addressed two separate and distinct actions, neither of which rest on constitutional authority.

    Land was acquired by the government in the eastern states prior to the Constitution and subsequently sold or offered in exchange for development (such as homesteads, canals and railroads). If they purchased the land once again for their purposes (military bases, highways, etc.) it is commerce. I doubt that ALL of the land was disposed of by the government in the first place (just another one of your poorly researched facts). The lands of the Lousiana Purchase were no different. Guadalupe-Hidalgo was more confiscation in line with Manifest Destiny than otherwise.

    Again, you fail. You appear unable to comprehend the difference between 'needful buildings (facilities)' and federalizing areas constituting double-digit percentages of states.

    You've helped established the fact that the US is engaged in land and resource commerce. It is obvious. Prima facie. You tilt at windmills sir.

    WTF does that have to do with anything? There is no constitutional authority to do so, therefore it should not be done.

    There is no water out west that is unaccounted for (2/3 rds of the land mass which you mathematically posted as 1/3 in error).

    Well, you have made a clean sweep in failure! Water is irrelevant. Methods are the point at issue, and the Louisiana Territory was transferred into private hands by the same methods as the territories east of the Mississippi. Roughly 1/3 of the continental US was affected by this notion of federal prerogative to admit states while retaining ownership of massive portions thereof. Now, please explain what water has to do with this.
    .
     

    Manatee

    Shooter
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    needfull buildings vs. double-digit federalization….hmmm. So what percentage is it that you don't care whether it follows your view of the constitution? Seems to me that you're in for a penny, in for a pound. You are the one arguing absolutes.

    I suspect your problem is that you are a closet Deseret nationalist. Much like Bundy standing in front of the American flag for a foto op and then saying he doesn't recognize the government of the flag, I believe your cognitive dissonance has carried you beyond the realm of rational thought. He says he's not a US citizen, that he's a citizen of Nevada. At other times he even rejects the authority of Nevada.

    You have a classic sovereign citizen.

    Good luck to you and your "associate" members of Oathkeepers. If I am going to defend someone, it's not going to be some crazy lunatic like Bundy.
     
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    Manatee

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    426x600.jpg
     

    Destro

    Master
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    I got it!

    Article 4, Section 3, Clause 2

    The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.[SUP][/SUP]
     
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