Better look at UC Davis pepper spray incident.

[finnegan]

Does anyone know if the protesters were approached by uniformed officers before the riot squad showed up? I understand coming prepared, but it also has to be said that the police showed up in riot gear inflames the protesters as well.

I think this is the biggest misconception on the part of law enforcement in dealing with these protests is assuming its one hair from becoming a riot, while in reality there has been very little crowd-instigated violence or destruction until the riot teams arrive, being prepared for two levels of violence above the current situation as officer safety dictates. Its a vicious cycle.

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

You are cherry-picking two of the ways in which they were violating the standard of "peaceful.". I mentioned half a dozen ways. The First is not an unfettered right at the expense of all other considerations. It becomes even more muddied when individuals seek to assembly outside the confines of private property. Their behavior is not beyond reproach simply because they are in the process of exercising a single right. We cannot and should not view these circumstances in a vacuum, without acknowledging the role additional factors play in determining legitimacy.

Public property meant for crowd gatherings is fair game for public protests, not just private property.

When political assembly is a protected right, assembling in public cannot also be a crime... Making peaceful political assembly a crime is an infringement on that right.

When you apply laws written to charge rioters in this type of situation, you are not only applying the law outside of the intended context - you infringe on the right of free assembly.

I do not make the argument that murder is legal because they are protesting, or that protesting allows them to commit crimes without punishment... only that peacefully protesting in a public space is not a criminal act - and disbanding a peaceful political protest is illegal. Laws that infringe upon the right of free assembly - are illegal. Penal code 409 may be perfectly legal when applied to rioters, but applying it in this circumstance infringes on freedom of assembly.

Maybe someone can yield an example of the violence that took place before the police arrived in this instance? As far as I understand, it was mostly college students sitting around in a public space.... In my mind I can imagine them talking about horrible college music and exchanging bad philosophy quotes.

 

[Denny347]

USSC decision Forrester v. City of San Diego is worth a look. The police acted 100% within the law.
Police Chief Magazine - View Article

25 F3d 804 Forrester v. City of San Diego D | OpenJurist

 

[IndyBeerman]

Unless I'm mistaken, most places require a permit to have a peaceable protest or assemble of any amount of people, along with a insurance liability policy.

Am I mistaken? Did the Tea Party assemblies take out these permits to not be in violation, yes they did.

Did the OWS'rs?????

No, there fore I believe right there they are in violation.

Just because it is public owned property, it does not give one or many the right to assemble, try that on a state owned National Guard Armory, and I'll wave goodbye to you as you're hauled off.

There is a right way to do things, and a wrong way, the protesters here did it the wrong way, encircling, preventing a path to walk away and border line crowd enticement to whip the masses into a frenzy are wrong, peaceable ceased the moment they stated to crowd and encircle the officers.

I say cluster bomb them with pepper spray bombs made with that mad arse pepper spay that is meanest on earth.


I read somewhere where this stuff is so madass bad, that to be around it you have to be in a contained suit and wear a respirator, the tiniest bit on the skin or inhaled particle will cause serious problems.

 

[88GT]

Public property meant for crowd gatherings is fair game for public protests, not just private property.

When political assembly is a protected right, assembling in public cannot also be a crime... Making peaceful political assembly a crime is an infringement on that right.

When you apply laws written to charge rioters in this type of situation, you are not only applying the law outside of the intended context - you infringe on the right of free assembly.

Assemblage wasn't the crime. Disturbing the public domain, impeding right-of-way traffic, preventing egress with force or threat of force were crimes that earned them their prize.

I do not make the argument that murder is legal because they are protesting, or that protesting allows them to commit crimes without punishment... only that peacefully protesting in a public space is not a criminal act - and disbanding a peaceful political protest is illegal. Laws that infringe upon the right of free assembly - are illegal. Penal code 409 may be perfectly legal when applied to rioters, but applying it in this circumstance infringes on freedom of assembly.

The were not peaceful. They used force against others. Can't be both.

Maybe someone can yield an example of the violence that took place before the police arrived in this instance? As far as I understand, it was mostly college students sitting around in a public space.... In my mind I can imagine them talking about horrible college music and exchanging bad philosophy quotes.

Your premise is wrong. Non-violence is not synonymous with peaceful. And strictly speaking, the First limits Congress only in its passage of laws. It does not prevent local LE to keep the peace or uphold certain standards of public behavior.

 

[sepe]

I see nothing wrong with washing those moronic hippies with OC. I be willing to bet that the majority of them complaining about high tuition costs aren't paying a dime. I'd be willing to bet that most of them are out there to be part of something. Hell, I'd have washed those hippies when they started those stupid hand signals and the obnoxious human microphone.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Unless I'm mistaken, most places require a permit to have a peaceable protest or assemble of any amount of people, along with a insurance liability policy.

Am I mistaken? Did the Tea Party assemblies take out these permits to not be in violation, yes they did.

Did the OWS'rs?????

No, there fore I believe right there they are in violation.

Just because it is public owned property, it does not give one or many the right to assemble, try that on a state owned National Guard Armory, and I'll wave goodbye to you as you're hauled off.

There is a right way to do things, and a wrong way, the protesters here did it the wrong way, encircling, preventing a path to walk away and border line crowd enticement to whip the masses into a frenzy are wrong, peaceable ceased the moment they stated to crowd and encircle the officers.

I say cluster bomb them with pepper spray bombs made with that mad arse pepper spay that is meanest on earth.


I read somewhere where this stuff is so madass bad, that to be around it you have to be in a contained suit and wear a respirator, the tiniest bit on the skin or inhaled particle will cause serious problems.

The problem with using such agents is that they tend to be hard to clean up and can result in a nasty surprise to the next innocent party that encounters them.

 

[pirate]

Lol @ needing a permit to peaceably assemble. Gotta love our rules that trump constitutional authority.

You can peaceably assemble, granted the clerk says its ok with a piece of paper.

(I know I read that in some Jefferson papers I have lying around.)



On another note, I love me some people getting sprayed. Good fun no matter what.

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

Assemblage wasn't the crime. Disturbing the public domain, impeding right-of-way traffic, preventing egress with force or threat of force were crimes that earned them their prize.




The were not peaceful. They used force against others. Can't be both.



Your premise is wrong. Non-violence is not synonymous with peaceful. And strictly speaking, the First limits Congress only in its passage of laws. It does not prevent local LE to keep the peace or uphold certain standards of public behavior.

But assemblage was their "crime"... again, see penal code 409 - the law cited over megaphones during the police warnings in the video.

Every person remaining present at the place of any riot, rout,
or unlawful assembly, after the same has been lawfully warned to
disperse, except public officers and persons assisting them in
attempting to disperse the same, is guilty of a misdemeanor.

Yes, the first amendment protects against government creating laws that infringe on certain natural rights... but the bill of rights is also a document that protects natural rights of citizens from actual infringement, not just the threat of writing laws on paper. Enforcing laws that infringe on protected rights is not in compliance with the bill of rights.

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

A peaceful political protest is a lawful assembly, even if someone reading penal code 409 falsely believes it is applicable, or if people believe we should have to get permission slips to exercise our natural rights. The difference between a natural right and a privilege is that you don't have to ask permission - you were granted permission at the time of your creation.

The fact that protesters exist in a public space designated for the use of gatherings is not a violent force, even if you feel you want to stand or walk in that exact spot. They do not magically become "not peaceful" because someone else feels they should not be there. They did not shut down the campus... they sat around at a peaceful assembly and talked, without any infringement on the rights of others... sounds pretty peaceful... better send in the riot squad...

Also, the video seems to jump quite a bit does it not? Notice in most of the videos the officers are on both sides of them... the subjective editing and chosen camera angles sure make a difference... now watch this video, where the officer clearly steps over the students to better position himself to spray them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsGog5MD22Q

Still think they were "blocked in" by the people sitting on the ground? It sure looks like their ability to casually step over them destroys any doubt that they reasonably believed they were trapped....

 

[public servant]

No. Back in the good old days they used fire hoses, nightsticks, dogs. Now they use all this wussy stuff to avoid injuring anyone. The rioters back in the old days just sucked it up and took it.

Ahhh...the good old days...

 

[Denny347]

I say cluster bomb them with pepper spray bombs made with that mad arse pepper spay that is meanest on earth.


I read somewhere where this stuff is so madass bad, that to be around it you have to be in a contained suit and wear a respirator, the tiniest bit on the skin or inhaled particle will cause serious problems.

Oleoresin Capsicum (OC) aka pepper spray is Chili pepper. It burns...boy it burns, but it washes away easily. Clothes can be laundered as usual. A drop on your skin will make that spot feel like it is burning but its not that bad.

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

Yeah... it burns like hell, but you will get over it.

Think of the hottest pepper you have ever eaten, increase the heat, then rub it liberally in your eyes in liquid form.

 

[cordex]

I'm never in support of shrugging off police impropriety, but based on my understanding of the events, I don't have a single problem with their actions.

 

[level.eleven]

Oleoresin Capsicum (OC) aka pepper spray is Chili pepper. It burns...boy it burns, but it washes away easily. Clothes can be laundered as usual. A drop on your skin will make that spot feel like it is burning but its not that bad.

Nerd alert. Capsaicin is hydrophobic. So no, it doesn't "wash away" Ask any chef who has processed peppers and touched their face an hour later.

 

[Spanky46151]

Wonder if Jo Ann M. Gora, President of Ball State, has seen this video of the incident? She was certainly quick to critisize the officers during her on-stage butt-sniff with David Letterman. Guess it really doesn't matter, I'm sure she wouldn't pass on an opportunity to show how ultra cool and progressive she is.

 

[viiiupndhead]

I'm one of the first to call out police brutality when I see it. In this case though, I'm really not so sure I think this event passes muster. The police were, IMHO, very professional, and practiced as much restraint as possible. There were numerous warnings issued, and never once did I see the police become overtly aggressive towards the crowd. Whether that is a matter of selective editing, I admit I cannot be sure. I saw what appeared to be possibly 3 dozen officers there. Three dozen officers surrounded by hundreds, perhaps even a thousand protesters. This situation could have turned ugly very, very quickly. Frankly, I'm glad it was resolved with as little use of force as there was.

Thanks Denny 347 for this post.
<foot in mouth>I believe in another thread on this subject (that I can no longer seem to find) we had a healthy discussion about how best to remove these protesters. I was wrong. These officers were more than patient, and used the least violent means at their disposal to exit the campus</foot in mouth>

 

[TMU317]

Nerd alert. Capsaicin is hydrophobic. So no, it doesn't "wash away" Ask any chef who has processed peppers and touched their face an hour later.

Just because it is hydrophobic does not necessarily mean it will not "wash away". It will go into solution easily with other oils, and can be removed with soaps and detergents. Washing skin with soap and clothing with detergents will remove the capsaicin. An emulsifier is used in OC spray which allows capsaicin to be suspended in water. Since it is suspended in solution, it should wash away with water if the water is applied soon after exposure. The problem is when it is "washed" away, other areas are exposed to the chemical leading to further irritation.

 

[level.eleven]

Just because it is hydrophobic does not necessarily mean it will not "wash away". It will go into solution easily with other oils, and can be removed with soaps and detergents. Washing skin with soap and clothing with detergents will remove the capsaicin. An emulsifier is used in OC spray which allows capsaicin to be suspended in water. Since it is suspended in solution, it should wash away with water if the water is applied soon after exposure. The problem is when it is "washed" away, other areas are exposed to the chemical leading to further irritation.

Of course it will go into to solution with other oils or alcohols. I took issue more with the "easily" part than anything else. The public isn't generally afforded the luxury of having detergent, the proper training, and the proper supplies at hand when they get sprayed.

 

[public servant]

The public isn't generally afforded the luxury of having detergent, the proper training, and the proper supplies at hand when they get sprayed.

College kids don't have soap and water?

Pour copious amounts of water on it and let it air dry. Then suck it up. They wanted a confrontation and they got one.

If you can't run with the big dogs...stay on the porch.

 

[Denny347]

Nerd alert. Capsaicin is hydrophobic. So no, it doesn't "wash away" Ask any chef who has processed peppers and touched their face an hour later.

Fox Labs International
Sudecon and baby wipes work well. OC is oil based. Water alone will work but it would require a long flushing period. Wash in the same manner you would any oil based product. However, clothing can be washed in a washing machine without issues.