Best CC Caliber?

[Bapak2ja]

I know, it has been done repeatedly. However, I found this article presents data in a way that is easily understood by a non-expert like myself. The comparison of data on "stopping power", i.e. what percentage of BGs stopped after one hit, how many hits were needed to stop the BG, etc. was helpful to me. The conclusions were reasonable, based on the data. I thought some here would appreciate seeing it.

I know http://www.usconcealedcarry.net is read by many here, but I have not sen this mentioned previously. I hope it is of help to the community.

Choosing The Best Caliber For Concealed Carry » Concealed Carry Report - USConcealedCarry.net

 

[rjklein4470]

For some reason I like to go against the grain. I carry a Sig p229.357. The sig .357 round at 1,500 fps is hot.

 

[rockhopper46038]

I currently carry .45ACP as my choice, but I've recently been doing some experimenting with 9x23 Win. If I can get it into a Colt Combat Commander or similar, I think I would make the switch.

 

[youngda9]

This settles it:

 

[atvdave]

I think it's more important as to where you hit someone, as to what caliber you use.

 

[Hohn]

Any stats study showing .32 outperforming the "big 3" in one shot stops is probably not reliable. Simple averages are almost meaningless.

 

[VN Vet]

After practicing (alot) shot placement with my carry gun I choose the 9mm for Summer carry and .45acp for Winter carry. The mighty .380acp is my year-round BUG.

 

[NHT3]

I'm curious to hear BehindblueIs take on this.. He probably has as much "real world" experience in this area than the author of the article.


[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]-- [/FONT][FONT=&amp]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]Ruger MK III mechanic [FONT=&amp]-- [/FONT]Certified Glock armorer
NRA Basic pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] --[/FONT]1911 Mechanic

 

[rjklein4470]

This settles it:

OMG my side hurst just looking at the 10 mm wow

 

[Jeremy1066]

9mm in the summer and 10mm in the winter.

 

[rjklein4470]

OMG my side hurst just looking at the 10 mm wow

.357 SIG Underwood 125 gr Gold Dot Ammo Test (SIM-TEST) - YouTube

at 1,500 fps .357 might show a diff result

 

[sepe]

I mostly carry loving words and a kind heart for anyone that may try to harm me.

 

[rockhopper46038]

If 9x23 Win doesn't work out for me, there's always .460 Rowland.

 

[Gluemanz28]

S&W Shield .40

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm curious to hear BehindblueIs take on this.. He probably has as much "real world" experience in this area than the author of the article.


[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]-- [/FONT][FONT=&amp]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]Ruger MK III mechanic [FONT=&amp]-- [/FONT]Certified Glock armorer
NRA Basic pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] --[/FONT]1911 Mechanic

I think you lose a lot in the averages. I think certain calibers perform better due to bullet selection, who commonly carries them, etc. I think you can draw some overall advice, but don't get hung up in the specific numbers.

Whatever caliber the police carry is going to be over represented because there's at least a modicum of training and there's good bullet selection. Common thug guns are going to be under represented due to generally poor bullet selection and the whole holding the gun sideways thing. Yes, they still do it. Yes, they hit each other in the legs a lot.

I don't have anything I specifically disagree with. I just believe there are so many variables that getting to a precise number of shots down to the 1/100th strikes me as unlikely. Yes, I get its an average. Here's the problem. I had a victim shot approximately 14 times with a .40. 10 in the limbs and 4 in the gut. He was right in front of a firehouse, they got him patched up in time, and he lived. Which bullet "stopped" him? #1? #14? I dunno. He claims amnesia, so I'm guessing he's not telling any researcher, either. Another one comes to mind on the other end of the scale. Suspect says he wants to fist fight, victim goes out to meet him, suspect pulls gun, victim starts backing toward his house. The suspect goes ahead and shoots him twice anyway, with the victim continuing to back away. Is that a two, one, or zero? The victim was "stopped" from fighting by the sight of the gun, but didn't stop his intended course of action despite being shot twice. Is it a stop or a failure to stop? If its a zero shot stop, how do you know what caliber to credit it to? How do you situations like these and enter it into your statistics? Regardless of how you do it, even if you kick it out, you aren't getting "true" results.

You may get a good count in a police action shooting or in a civilian defensive shooting, especially at a business where there's video and you can go back and actually see, but even when people want to be helpful, there's so much stress its unlikely they are going to be able to tell you if it was #2 or #3 that stopped him. Especially with modern higher capacity guns and the training to shoot until the threat stops, you may stitch a guy after he's stopped but before that info gets to your brain and back to your hand to stop firing. A heavier recoiling gun like the .357 may end up showing it takes less shots simply because there's more time between each shot and the "evaluate that he's stopped, let's stop shooting" time frame has less shots fired.

Moving beyond that into the general recommendations and we're basically on the same page. .380 and up = good. Smaller = bad. (With the caveat that I don't make a recommendation on the .32 one way or the other from first hand observation because its so uncommon I don't have a good data set. My belief is that it should be avoided, but that's not the same as seeing it. I'm deeply suspicious of how he got his numbers on that one and would bet the sample size is tiny)

There are so many variables, and frankly even if you have statements from everyone, video, and an autopsy, you probably still don't have the entire picture. Carry whatever you shoot accurately the fastest in a caliber that's capable of penetrating bone and still getting to the vitals. I personally carry a .45 or a .357 as a main gun and a .38 as a backup. I'd carry a .40 or 9mm with no problem. There's not much in the way of duty sized pistols in .380, but I'd be ok with one as a backup. I will say I'd rather carry a .380 with good sights, a nice trigger, and an intuitive grip angle than a .45 without them.

 

[ChootEm]

I think you lose a lot in the averages. I think certain calibers perform better due to bullet selection, who commonly carries them, etc. I think you can draw some overall advice, but don't get hung up in the specific numbers.

Whatever caliber the police carry is going to be over represented because there's at least a modicum of training and there's good bullet selection. Common thug guns are going to be under represented due to generally poor bullet selection and the whole holding the gun sideways thing. Yes, they still do it. Yes, they hit each other in the legs a lot.

I don't have anything I specifically disagree with. I just believe there are so many variables that getting to a precise number of shots down to the 1/100th strikes me as unlikely. Yes, I get its an average. Here's the problem. I had a victim shot approximately 14 times with a .40. 10 in the limbs and 4 in the gut. He was right in front of a firehouse, they got him patched up in time, and he lived. Which bullet "stopped" him? #1? #14? I dunno. He claims amnesia, so I'm guessing he's not telling any researcher, either. Another one comes to mind on the other end of the scale. Suspect says he wants to fist fight, victim goes out to meet him, suspect pulls gun, victim starts backing toward his house. The suspect goes ahead and shoots him twice anyway, with the victim continuing to back away. Is that a two, one, or zero? The victim was "stopped" from fighting by the sight of the gun, but didn't stop his intended course of action despite being shot twice. Is it a stop or a failure to stop? If its a zero shot stop, how do you know what caliber to credit it to? How do you situations like these and enter it into your statistics? Regardless of how you do it, even if you kick it out, you aren't getting "true" results.

You may get a good count in a police action shooting or in a civilian defensive shooting, especially at a business where there's video and you can go back and actually see, but even when people want to be helpful, there's so much stress its unlikely they are going to be able to tell you if it was #2 or #3 that stopped him. Especially with modern higher capacity guns and the training to shoot until the threat stops, you may stitch a guy after he's stopped but before that info gets to your brain and back to your hand to stop firing. A heavier recoiling gun like the .357 may end up showing it takes less shots simply because there's more time between each shot and the "evaluate that he's stopped, let's stop shooting" time frame has less shots fired.

Moving beyond that into the general recommendations and we're basically on the same page. .380 and up = good. Smaller = bad. (With the caveat that I don't make a recommendation on the .32 one way or the other from first hand observation because its so uncommon I don't have a good data set. My belief is that it should be avoided, but that's not the same as seeing it. I'm deeply suspicious of how he got his numbers on that one and would bet the sample size is tiny)

There are so many variables, and frankly even if you have statements from everyone, video, and an autopsy, you probably still don't have the entire picture. Carry whatever you shoot accurately the fastest in a caliber that's capable of penetrating bone and still getting to the vitals. I personally carry a .45 or a .357 as a main gun and a .38 as a backup. I'd carry a .40 or 9mm with no problem. There's not much in the way of duty sized pistols in .380, but I'd be ok with one as a backup. I will say I'd rather carry a .380 with good sights, a nice trigger, and an intuitive grip angle than a .45 without them.

Okay, still new the site but sir you sound like a wealth of information! Also thanks for the comments on the 44 Mag reloading.

 

[Hohn]

If I may comment further on the statistics of this:


Simple averages are VERY misleading. Especially with a small data set.


Let's say we pull three people out of a crowd and find that one is 62" tall, another 68" and another 65". The average height is 65" We'd be tempted to say that half the people in the crowd would be shorter and half would be taller.

Let's try to determine how likely it is that we would find someone who is 70" tall. If we assume a "normal" distribution, then the standard deviation is 3. Technically, that would mean that 68% of the people would be between 62" and 68".

But the tiny sample makes this data almost worthless. You only took three people from the crowd. What if you took three different people from the crowd and found *their* average height. And another sample? And another? The averages of each of those sample is different.

Going back to the original sample, we can calculate the "confidence interval." This is a way of saying "based on this sample, what range of values can I have 95% confidence that the range contains true average of the whole population?

This "confidence interval" for this sample of three is 57.6" - 72". That range is so large compared to the original average of 65" that you cannot make any real valid judgments about how probable any particular height may be. The validity of the statistical model is very low.

 

[6mm Shoot]

I have read stuff on this before and I still think that shot placement has more to do with stopping some one than bullet size. I personally like the 45 ACP for carry. It is the biggest bullet I can fire under stress with some sort of control.

Being able to hit a target center of mass or in the head under stress is going to help more than what caliber you use. No stats to back up my claim, just years of hunting and knowing if you place the bullet where it should go the game drops in it's tracks. Now you could have used a 243 Winchester, 358 Winchester or a 308 and you placed the bullet where you should and they will all drop a animal in its tracks.

 

[bhvostal]

I switch between 45ACP and 40S&W

 

[Birds Away]

For me this falls under the category of questions that can't really be answered. There are just way too many variables. While I agree with the widely accepted advice to carry the biggest gun you can effectively use. How does one accurately determine that. Do you carry the biggest gun you can fire three shots in rapid succession and hit within a 5" diameter of your target? Or is that too big? What defines rapid succession? Is that three seconds, or less? Most people can accomplish this with a variety of guns while stationary. How about while moving? Most ranges don't afford you the opportunity to practice or assess this. Putting the biscuit in the basket, even while moving, will be much easier to accomplish in practice. Determining how well you will be able to accomplish that while experiencing incoming fire is virtually impossible. You can utilize CQB or force on force training but it is still a "canned" scenario. It may raise your stress level but still won't put you in that life or death situation. Having been in the military I can tell you from experience that it is impossible to tell how any individual will react in a super high stress situation. The folks you think of as meek and mild may remain stoic in the face of personal danger while the folks who exude bravado might wilt immediately at any sign of an actual threat to self. You just don't know. Having in the back of your mind that you are playing a "game" while training keeps this well within the realm of the unknown. Judging guns simply by caliber and it's effect on ballistic gelatin is equally uncertain. I guess the best answer is to take all of the information available and make the most educated decision you can make. It may all come to naught as there is the very real possibility that, when faced with that situation, you do nothing at all. It happens. You may also find out that the meek little girl you hang around with is actually a cornered momma bear in a fight. My only wish is that these questions will eternally remain unanswered for all of us..