Bear creek or PSA or ????

[DadSmith]

A MOA or sub-MOA gun is a gun that can do it regularly and consistently over time until things literally begin to wear out.

Getting lucky with a 3-shot group out of a general purpose AR isn't an accurate judge of the platform's capability - nor the shooter's.

TRULY accurate gas guns are 1.5 MOA guns consistently. Like Knights and Hodge. Note - these are 5.56 guns.

If your BCA or PSA AR-15 in 5.56 is *really* a MOA or better gun consistently over many rounds/mags - then you should prove it. Until then, it's literally not believable because the best of the best doesn't do that.

Stop shooting M193 in a 1-7 twist barrel, and go with a 75-77gr quality bullet, and those 3-4moa AR groups will shrink a lot.

 

[Expat]

just to be clear, everyone is shooting a 1 inch or less group at 100 yards… you all are better shots than I am.

 

[DadSmith]

just to be clear, everyone is shooting a 1 inch or less group at 100 yards… you all are better shots than I am.

I use a bench and lead sled to check a load and accuracy. I won't do that without an aid. However, it's good to know what your rifle, and the ammunition you use is capable of minus human error if possible.
That's why I bought the lead sled to take as much me error out of the equation so I can see how accurate the load I'm testing is.
I bet if held perfectly it probably shoots even smaller groups. But I don't have the money for that kind of equipment.

 

[Tactically Fat]

Stop shooting M193 in a 1-7 twist barrel, and go with a 75-77gr quality bullet, and those 3-4moa AR groups will shrink a lot.

People buying PSA and BCA products usually ain't shooting ammo that costs 60-80 CPR...

And the best ammo in the world won't make a PSA or BCA product consistently 1MOA. How do I know? Because it's rare that the literal best AR brands on the market aren't getting that.

All of this to keep in mind we're talking generalities here - one of those being these are standard rifles with generally standard ammo. Not purpose built target rigs. 5.56 general purpose rifles.

Again - a Knight's Armament 5.56 gas gun will be around 1MOA with quality ammunition.

No one is going to get consistent accuracy of that caliber (heh) with much else - if anything.

Louder for those in back: consistent and repeatable accuracy. Not 1-off.

 

[DadSmith]

People buying PSA and BCA products usually ain't shooting ammo that costs 60-80 CPR...

And the best ammo in the world won't make a PSA or BCA product consistently 1MOA. How do I know? Because it's rare that the literal best AR brands on the market aren't getting that.

All of this to keep in mind we're talking generalities here - one of those being these are standard rifles with generally standard ammo. Not purpose built target rigs. 5.56 general purpose rifles.

Again - a Knight's Armament 5.56 gas gun will be around 1MOA with quality ammunition.

No one is going to get consistent accuracy of that caliber (heh) with much else - if anything.

Louder for those in back: consistent and repeatable accuracy. Not 1-off.

Well if my cheap BCA barrel will hold 1-1.5moa for 4000rds + I'll be very happy.
If the accuracy drops off to a level I can't live with ill just buy another cheap BCA barrel and repeat. Compared to spending $350 for one Criterion barrel and getting close to the same performance.

I reload and I shoot pretty much 75gr all the time in all my 5.56 AR-15 rifles.

 

[Purdue1991]

How consistently? We talking 10 10rd groups?

Because in general, the AR-15 platform is, again generally, a 3MOA platform.

Very few rifles, including precision bolt actions, are going to shoot 10 rounds in a row sub-moa. Barrel heat would take almost every rifle out of contention. Most every rifle manufacturer defines moa as 3 shoot groupings.

Accuracy Testing - Bergara USA

Accuracy Testing

www.bergara.online

 

[Purdue1991]

People buying PSA and BCA products usually ain't shooting ammo that costs 60-80 CPR...

And the best ammo in the world won't make a PSA or BCA product consistently 1MOA. How do I know? Because it's rare that the literal best AR brands on the market aren't getting that.

All of this to keep in mind we're talking generalities here - one of those being these are standard rifles with generally standard ammo. Not purpose built target rigs. 5.56 general purpose rifles.

Again - a Knight's Armament 5.56 gas gun will be around 1MOA with quality ammunition.

No one is going to get consistent accuracy of that caliber (heh) with much else - if anything.

Louder for those in back: consistent and repeatable accuracy. Not 1-off.

I hand load, precisely for that reason. I use quality components and take factory ammunition variances out of the equation...

 

[Knights1776]

Why is that?

Nothing to do with brand snobbery. I don't agree with some of the practices they have got caught doing in the past.

 

[CL1K KL4C]

The PSA's are good to go. It's no DD or BCM but at the price point they're hard to beat. If you build your own you can source a decent barrel and furniture and it will shoot just as well as a 1500$ rifle at half the cost.

 

[Tactically Fat]

The PSA's are good to go. It's no DD or BCM but at the price point they're hard to beat. If you build your own you can source a decent barrel and furniture and it will shoot just as well as a 1500$ rifle at half the cost.

Provided, of course, that it's assembled correctly.

 

[DadSmith]

Provided, of course, that it's assembled correctly.

That's why you check before you shoot.
At the price point it isn't going to hurt to check things out.

 

[92FSTech]

I've had two rifles with BCA barrels in them. One was a bargain basement AR that we built for my son. We put that thing together out of parts I had lying around and $250 for the rest of the stuff we needed. IIRC the BCG and barrel were both BCA on that gun. I didn't expect anything special out of it, but that thing didn't even live up to my low expectations. It was a paper pie plate at 50 yards gun...on par with my old mini-14.

I also had a scoped 6.5 Grendel build that started with a BCA barrel. With that thing on the gun, I couldn't get it to group better than about 4 moa. I swapped it out for a Faxon, and with everything else the same (including the ammo), it shrank the groups down to where I was getting consistent 2moa or better.

Conclusion? BCA barrels are trash. Or at least the two I had were. I'm not willing to try again with a third.

I've had several PSA rifles, and actually still own two of them. Neither is what I'd call a precision rifle (one is a basic 16" fixed-FSB carbine with an Aimpoint PRO, the other a 20" M16A4 "clone-ish" rifle with irons), but both are reliable and accurate enough for my purposes. I have had that carbine for 13 years now, and it's seen a lot of rounds...I just shot it this morning in fact. Before they bought and issued us patrol rifles, it rode in my car at work, and I wouldn't hesitate to put it back into that role again if I had to. It's a solid performer.

I'm not sure if PSA's new stuff is still on the same level as that rifle. I bought it when they were a relatively young company, and they were paying close attention to keeping everything mil-spec because that was a huge selling point for them. Rumor was that they were sourcing their barrels from FN at the time. I'm not sure if that's the same across their full product line these days, and I know they now have different tiers. But those two rifles have been significantly better performers than either of the BCA guns, though.

I did have a 9mm carbine from PSA that was a hot mess. There were a multitude of things wrong with that one. Like has already been said in this thread, you take your chances with PSA. But in my experience, you're throwing your money away with BCA.

 

[DadSmith]

I've had two rifles with BCA barrels in them. One was a bargain basement AR that we built for my son. We put that thing together out of parts I had lying around and $250 for the rest of the stuff we needed. IIRC the BCG and barrel were both BCA on that gun. I didn't expect anything special out of it, but that thing didn't even live up to my low expectations. It was a paper pie plate at 50 yards gun...on par with my old mini-14.

I also had a scoped 6.5 Grendel build that started with a BCA barrel. With that thing on the gun, I couldn't get it to group better than about 4 moa. I swapped it out for a Faxon, and with everything else the same (including the ammo), it shrank the groups down to where I was getting consistent 2moa or better.

Conclusion? BCA barrels are trash. Or at least the two I had were. I'm not willing to try again with a third.

I've had several PSA rifles, and actually still own two of them. Neither is what I'd call a precision rifle (one is a basic 16" fixed-FSB carbine with an Aimpoint PRO, the other a 20" M16A4 "clone-ish" rifle with irons), but both are reliable and accurate enough for my purposes. I have had that carbine for 13 years now, and it's seen a lot of rounds...I just shot it this morning in fact. Before they bought and issued us patrol rifles, it rode in my car at work, and I wouldn't hesitate to put it back into that role again if I had to. It's a solid performer.

I'm not sure if PSA's new stuff is still on the same level as that rifle. I bought it when they were a relatively young company, and they were paying close attention to keeping everything mil-spec because that was a huge selling point for them. Rumor was that they were sourcing their barrels from FN at the time. I'm not sure if that's the same across their full product line these days, and I know they now have different tiers. But those two rifles have been significantly better performers than either of the BCA guns, though.

I did have a 9mm carbine from PSA that was a hot mess. There were a multitude of things wrong with that one. Like has already been said in this thread, you take your chances with PSA. But in my experience, you're throwing your money away with BCA.

I have just the opposite opinion of BCA barrels. All mine with match ammunition will shoot 1-1.25 moa off a rest at 100yds

Question.
Did you contact them about it? Send them back they will make it right.

 

[92FSTech]

I don't have either of those rifles anymore...parts got replaced, lowers got repurposed, and some stuff got sold off or trashed. The Grendel (with replacement Faxon barrel) went to a buddy who wanted to deer hunt with it. Last I heard he sold it to another of our buddies because he got sick of paying for/trying to find ammo for it. Which I warned him about when I sold it to him, along with my dies and brass.

I'm not big on dealing with CS, especially over accuracy issues, because it's pretty difficult to prove that the barrel is the culprit rather than the shooter or the build. Buying the Faxon barrel definitely proved it to me, but that was after the fact with the benefit of hindsight. I know if I were the company, I'd be hesitant to believe some random customer that my part was the problem rather than the person's abilities behind the rifle.

I don't blame them for that, but I also didn't feel like going through the hassle of convincing them, tearing the gun apart, getting an RMA, rebuilding the gun, and then potentially having the same outcome. Often, you end up paying return shipping, too, so you've now sunk even more money into an undesirable product (as happened to me with my Taurus 605). I could have given them a chance to replace it, and maybe I should have, but frankly I'd lost confidence in the product and thankfully the barrels were cheap enough to be almost disposable. I chalked it up to a lesson learned, cut my losses, and moved on.

 

[rhslover]

I had a 450 bushmaster BCA upper, wouldn't cycle. Turned out they'd drilled the gas port too small. I drilled it to spec, cycled fine after that and shot well enough

 

[Combat Engineer]

I've bought two Anderson uppers and have no complaints.One of the lowers is last year's Ingo.These are 320. A pop accuracy ain't bad at 100 yards.I did use good triggers in both weapons.Pmc bronze 55 grain and a Sig lpvo.

 

[indyk]

I have FN, COLT rifles and a couple PSA nitrated and phosphated barrels builds.
ALL my PSA builds have never ever missed a beat and they were shot quite a bit.
In fact they all shoot very very respectable if I do my part every time, guaranteed.
They wear PSA premium/ Toolcraft phosphated bcg’s and can cycle all varieties of steel and brass, I have never had steel stuck casings or broken parts.
The only issue was blemished parts or late shipping. Anyone getting into can’t go wrong with a PSA build imo.

PSA has/had great relationships with the industry. Toolcraft, FN just down the road and other big name manufacturers that were providing parts for PSA. You just never knew who made the product you were getting.

The FN uppers were a little snappy, but these were mil spec contract barrels from what Josiah told me and were going to be a little more gassed so a Springco spring mod was in order.

I can’t say this reliabilty goes with their Ak’s or other offerings but that JAKL has me interested and thousands less than my SCAR
I really hope the JAKL pulls through for them!

 

[CL1K KL4C]

PSA has come a long way over the years. I was actually a recipient of an improperly assembled upper when they first hit the scene. My midlength upper came with a carbine gas tube installed. I reached out to PSA and asked them to just send me the correct gas tube and I would install it. They insisted I send it back so they could give it another inspection and install the correct gas tube. I had the upper back in less than a week with a $100 credit at 10 magazines.

What PSA has done over the years is good for the 2A community allowing more people to become firearm owners. As mentioned, they've developed great working relationships with some heavy hitters in the firearm manufacturing industry. Continuing to expand their offerings and capabilities.

I've also no experience with their JAKL or AK lines. Partly because I have no interest in the JAKL or SCAR platform and have some eastern bloc AK's already. That being said, I've been tempted to grab one of their AK's on a few occasions. With the import supply drying up it's refreshing to see someone picking up the slack. I would like to think with modern manufacturing and QC capabilities the AK's are likely on par with some of the older romanian/yugo/polish/serbian offerings. The platform was already designed around antiquated manufacturing methods and some pretty generous tolerances. I can't gurantee but I would also like to think the team making the PSA AK's aren't consuming vodka on their lunch break

 

[Hookeye]

I've had great luck w non chrome lined 1-9 twist barrels shooting Black Hills and Winchester 55gr hunting ammo.

Dunno how many rounds before accuracy dropped off, never shot one that long LOL

So maybe the big name 1.5" guns stay 1.5" guns for a long period of time.....hammer forged and chrome lined.
Built for decent across the long haul.

Maybe cheaper barrels can offer better accuracy for lesser span?

Mine were just used as varmint rigs, but not purpose built to be super varminters.

 

[DD15CBUS]

I put bear creek in the same **** bucket as Black Rain, with Radical slightly higher.

PSA has some bad rep, but also seems to stand by their stuff if there is an issue, so they're placed higher IMO.

I would then step up to a Ruger/S&W/Sig pre built or piece together with aero and quality parts (I avoid strike industries, and some of the more off the wall color option parts, as a lot of it is crappy materials of questionable origin).