Attended Appleseed

[ATM]

...and I respectfully disagree about the 4MOA bit. The only way that "only drop and wind are differnt, is if the shooter does his part perfectly. The trajetory for the bullet height may be the same, but if you pull the trigger or mess up on your breathing at 25m. You may still hit the silhouette, at 300m, it's a miss because those mistakes are exponential. It may be an 1/4 inch off center at 25m, but at 12 times that distance, it's 3ft of center, which would definately be wide of a person. And that's assuming your aim was perfect and you just slapped the trigger. Add to the fact a 300m target it relatively small and you may not be aiming dead center and it's even worse.

Error angles in MOA convert directly into inches at distances in a linear, not exponential fashion.

Assuming wind and bullet drop compensation are correct between the distances, a one inch error at 25 meters = 4 inch error at 100 = 20 inch error at 500. All linear and all 4MOA.

That 1 inch target at 25 looks just like a 20 inch target at 500 as well, a little fuzzy dot above the front sight post.

 

[ATM]

double

 

[Wabatuckian]

I'm not getting my "panties in a twist."

I do think you're coming off very abrasive to all, though.

Josh <><

 

[Indecision]

Error angles in MOA convert directly into inches at distances in a linear, not exponential fashion.

Assuming wind and bullet drop compensation are correct between the distances, a one inch error at 25 meters = 4 inch error at 100 = 20 inch error at 500. All linear and all 4MOA.

That 1 inch square at 25 looks just like a 20 inch square at 500 as well, a little fuzzy dot above the front sight post.

I misspoke when I said exponentialy. I meant it in non-specific, "it's exaggerated" sense, in opposed to mathematical. Regardless, that 1" that was a hit at 25M is still a 12" miss at 300. And you are taking it as everything else is perfect. At 300m, it's hard to see what dead center is on a target. Especially with a target that isn't black against a white background.

 

[Indecision]

I'm not getting my "panties in a twist."

I do think you're coming off very abrasive to all, though.

Josh <><

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...40319-wts_thicker_skin_for_forum_members.html

I got you covered.

 

[ATM]

I misspoke when I said exponentialy. I meant it in non-specific, "it's exaggerated" sense, in opposed to mathematical. Regardless, that 1" that was a hit at 25M is still a 12" miss at 300. And you are taking it as everything else is perfect. At 300m, it's hard to see what dead center is on a target. Especially with a target that isn't black against a white background.

Yet they are exactly equal in MOA. Hits on a tiny little 1" target at 25 equate exactly to hitting 12" targets at 300 or man-sized 20" targets at 500. If you can hit any of these, you own them all.

If everything were perfect, we wouldn't be discussing error. Marksmanship is simply minimizing our imperfections in aim, movement, etc. The reduced targets appear just as larger targets would at further distance. It's just as hard to see dead center. As long as the colors are the same at each distance, that would have no impact.

 

[Indecision]

Yet they are exactly equal in MOA. Hits on a tiny little 1" target at 25 equate exactly to hitting 12" targets at 300 or man-sized 20" targets at 500. If you can hit any of these, you own them all.

If everything were perfect, we wouldn't be discussing error. Marksmanship is simply minimizing our imperfections in aim, movement, etc. The reduced targets appear just as larger targets would at further distance. It's just as hard to see dead center. As long as the colors are the same at each distance, that would have no impact.

Mathematicly, you are correct, but you add all the variable of human error and shooting a scaled target at 25m is not the same as shooting at a real 300m target. Period. No ifs ands or buts. I know lots of guys thave never qualified expert on a real range but can qualify expert all day on an Alt c range, that it's the exact same thing. Even though according to you they could equally qualify expert on a real range. It's easier, plain and simple. And a target at 300m does not look like a scaled target on a black and white piece of paper at 25m. It is NOT the same. A black silhouette on white paper vs a dark green silhouette against the natural environment of trees and grass.

Edit: During this conversation I've asked about 10ppl is it easier, harder, or the same to qualify expert Alt C in opposed to on a real range. So no leading question. 10/10 have said Alt C is easier.

 

[ATM]

Mathematicly, you are correct, but you add all the variable of human error and shooting a scaled target at 25m is not the same as shooting at a real 300m target. Period. No ifs ands or buts.
It is exactly (and only) this variable of human error (which relates to a linear cone of error) which is shown to be correct. Yes, period.
I know lots of guys thave never qualified expert on a real range but can qualify expert all day on an Alt c range, that it's the exact same thing. Even though according to you they could equally qualify expert on a real range. It's easier, plain and simple.
Never shot an Alt C so I don't know that it is a true mathematical, visual or psychological approximation of your standard range test.
And a target at 300m does not look like a scaled target on a black and white piece of paper at 25m. It is NOT the same. A black silhouette on white paper vs a dark green silhouette against the natural environment of trees and grass.
You are noting an optical contrast between two different specific tests.
This goes beyond the contention that minimized up close = full size at distance.
Edit: During this conversation I've asked about 10ppl is it easier, harder, or the same to qualify expert Alt C in opposed to on a real range. So no leading question. 10/10 have said Alt C is easier.
Again, it may well be more simple, my point is that it is not because one's impact on their shots (level of marksmanship) changes according to distance. A 4MOA shooter is 4MOA at every otherwise compensated distance.

 

[Indecision]

I agree with 100% of what you are saying in principle, just not reality. And the Alt - C target is the same concept of what you have. Just set up a bit differently. The paper is typically off white, like our zero targets if you have ever seen those.

 

[ATM]

The differences in those two qualification tests seem like they may be much more than what I am referencing. I am saying that if you took that ALT C and enlarged it 12 times as big (huge piece of paper, I know) and posted it at 300 instead of 25, it should look like the same sight picture and your hits should be very proportional assuming you correctly compensate for drop and wind. That would be more of an apples to apples comparison test.
Enjoyed the discussion and sorry for the threadjack. Stay safe!

 

[Indecision]

The differences in those two qualification tests seem like they may be much more than what I am referencing. I am saying that if you took that ALT C and enlarged it 12 times as big (huge piece of paper, I know) and posted it at 300 instead of 25, it should look like the same sight picture and your hits should be very proportional assuming you correctly compensate for drop and wind. That would be more of an apples to apples comparison test.
Enjoyed the discussion and sorry for the threadjack. Stay safe!

No dramas. Like I said, I understand what you are saying. I really do. But in my experience, the way stuff should work and the way it does are vastly different. I mean, come on, we have a socialist president of a democratic nation.

 

[Wabatuckian]

No, Indecision, I do not have thin skin.

I believe you just want to be argumentative for the argument's sake.

Appleseed is not intended to be a serious military qualifier. What it is intended to do, however, it does extremely well.

I challenge you to get to one.

Let me know when and where, and I'll be happy to attend if my work schedule allows it. After we score Rifleman and have some "play time," I'll be happy to shoot against you, whether it be .30 caliber or .22 caliber.

It's about FUN, man! We don't even have to put any money on the results!

Josh <><

 

[Indecision]

No, Indecision, I do not have thin skin.

I believe you just want to be argumentative for the argument's sake.

I was not being argumentative, you got butt hurt when i made an offhand comment about wondering how many people would qualify if it were at distance. You could say i was being argumentative AFTER you reacted to that comment, but not before.

Appleseed is not intended to be a serious military qualifier. What it is intended to do, however, it does extremely well.

Serious? Maybe not, military qualifier....

In short, a rifleman is an armed American, trained in the tradition of American Liberty. It's a man who has learned to shoot a rifle accurately — accurate enough to score "expert" on the Army Qualification Course. Until you can do that, you're considered a "Cook," unprepared and unqualified to carry a rifle on the firing line of freedom. But after attending an Appleseed AQT shoot, you'll have the credentials necessary to be a true rifleman, and will understand the critical need for defending freedom in this country.

Let me know when and where, and I'll be happy to attend if my work schedule allows it. After we score Rifleman and have some "play time," I'll be happy to shoot against you, whether it be .30 caliber or .22 caliber.

I'm gonna take one when I get back from Afghanistan (probably in NC), and if you want to get together and shoot sometime in Indy, I'm all about it. But I never said anything about your shooting ability, so don't worry about feeling imasculinated and needing to defend it. I am a self proclaimed poor shot, it took me a lot of tries to qual expert as stated previously, and enough rounds that I'm glad I wasn't buying.

 

[Paco Bedejo]

I mean, come on, we have a socialist president of a democratic nation.

Which was founded as a republic...

Point?

 

[Indecision]

Which was founded as a republic...

Point?

Things don't always work out the way they should.

 

[Farmritch]

Indecision
When you get back in NC make a point to get down to Ramsuer at the Home RWVA range you can shoot for free and have a great time. It's been too long but i have been there.
Also when Appleseed was a baby we shot at 25M then at 300M
we compared the 25M reduced size targets to the 300 M full size targets and the results were on par. the scores were nearly the same.
As I said in my earlier post 4 MOA is 4 MOA at 25M or 400M
If you pull a shot at 25M you will pull a shot at 3 or 400M
Give it a try then give us a report back You will love the RWVA home range. When you get down there and see Fred tell him Farmritch sent ya

 

[techres]

Everyone,

I am so glad we are all both interested and proud in our skills. And each of us should be. Josh, you did great and deserve both the patch and the pride that goes with it. Indecision, you have my respect for you duty and the skills that I hope to see personally when you get back.

The funny thing about shooting, guns and the internet is that a small communication failure added to a touch of pride, even well deserved pride, can make grumpy grumbling among what would otherwise be happy friends.

Indecision, you will shoot for free at any Appleseed and if it is one that I am Shoot Boss for, I seriously doubt you will have any chance to so much as pay for your own food. It will be both my honor and pleasure to have you on my line. And, God willing, we manage to be at the right range to do long distance I will be happy to lie down next to you and play spotter.

Josh, I expect to see you again on the trail, hopefully soon. Once you get that SKS back in the fight I am sure it will give that other M1A a run for the money. I also expect to see more great targets from you, even with that strange foreweight on the end of the your bolt Savage.

Everyone else, let's get back to the kinds of conversations that make INGO a great place, and make for a better family for us all.

Thanks!

 

[NEOCON]

I know it has been a while since I was in the Army but after 11 years of it and shooting all my life I thought the Appleseed shoot was going to be a piece of cake. I was humbled real quick and could not believe how bad I really was. I always shot expert during my 11 year military career and never thought it to be much of a challenge.

Last weekend we had a 11B NCO from the 101st at our shoot in Evansville his 3rd shoot by the way. He did not shoot Rifleman at his first seed but did at his second. His statements were very similar to the ones I just made. He has done 3 tours in the big sandpile.

But there is much for all of us to learn at Appleseed. I've been to 14 this year and I learn something every shoot. Don't blow it off as poo poo instruction. If I was preparing to go back to the sandpile I would seek every bit of knowledge and training I could.

By the way, Thank you for your service to our country! Me and my family appreciate all you do for our freedom.

 

[Indecision]

But there is much for all of us to learn at Appleseed. I've been to 14 this year and I learn something every shoot. Don't blow it off as poo poo instruction. If I was preparing to go back to the sandpile I would seek every bit of knowledge and training I could.

By the way, Thank you for your service to our country! Me and my family appreciate all you do for our freedom.

Oh I completely understand where you are coming from. As I stated before, I am not a good shot by any means. Hell I haven't shot in a LONG time. I got pulled off the line for an Injury and stuck in an intel position that even though I'm good now, am stuck in. I shot to qual like 6 months ago and that's it.

Also as I said before, I was never talking down to anyone about their skills. I simply said i wondered who all would qualify if they had to shoot at distance because in my experience it's much harder to do.

 

[mettle]

I've been to 3. I went the last two times to take a young friend. TheGuy makes all things fun and interesting as well. Fred is a gentleman to talk with too. I have a family, and weekend responsibilities now or I would have worked with 'TheGuy' on being an instructor three ago(or 4?) Istarting at Red Brush in E'ville...

I enjoyed the history more than anything. I think second to that was taking my young friend and watching him try and qualify w/ my M1a. It boils down, as a program, to be an aggressive 3 position shooting clinic w/ and inspiration to keep shooting tied to it and the 'rifleman' history too.

I shot with Fred up in Wabash a few ago and he does a good job presenting the 'riflemans' challenge. (and can shoot it himself for sure!)