ATF Agent Shot

[Cameramonkey]

If you didn't already think F the AFT, watch it.

Per the video, they showed up in 10 cars, with a piece of tape to cover his doorbell camera (you can see them doing it). Cut power to the house, then broke down the front door.

Who the hell is grabbing a pistol if that happens?! Not a reasonable person, that's for sure.

You assume he knew his power was cut, and he took the time to look outside to see all the police cars.

If someone kicked in your door, are you going to turn a light on? No. Are you going to run to the window first to make sure there not cop cars outside? No. Especially if you’re aroused from a deep sleep.

But I agree.F them.

 

[firecadet613]

You assume he knew his power was cut, and he took the time to look outside to see all the police cars.

If someone kicked in your door, are you going to turn a light on? No. Are you going to run to the window first to make sure there not cop cars outside? No. Especially if you’re aroused from a deep sleep.

But I agree.F them.

How did you gather that from my post?

WE know they showed up in police cars.

My point was, door gets kicked in, no one's going for a handgun if they have a long gun available.

Most people would notice darkness in their house (they said the front room was normally lit) so he'd know the power was cut. If you have a doorbell cam, you'd likely check it and notice no picture due to the tape.

IMO, a reasonable person wouldn't think it's the cops...

Watch the video, then respond @Cameramonkey

 

[Cameramonkey]

How did you gather that from my post?

WE know they showed up in police cars.

My point was, door gets kicked in, no one's going for a handgun if they have a long gun available.

Most people would notice darkness in their house (they said the front room was normally lit) so he'd know the power was cut. If you have a doorbell cam, you'd likely check it and notice no picture due to the tape.

IMO, a reasonable person wouldn't think it's the cops...

Watch the video, then respond @Cameramonkey

Ive seen the video. F them.

You are very difficult to read. Half of your messages seem like you are blaming the victim, then the next sentence goes the other way. Confusing AF.

You are making massive assumptions based on video and hindsight knowing the whole story. And sitting comfortably in your armchair. In the moment these things you sound like you are saying would be blatantly obvious to him, wouldnt even register in the moment under the circumstances.

 

[firecadet613]

Ive seen the video. F them.

You are very difficult to read. Half of your messages seem like you are blaming the victim, then the next sentence goes the other way. Confusing AF.

You are making massive assumptions based on video and hindsight knowing the whole story. And sitting comfortably in your armchair. In the moment these things you sound like you are saying would be blatantly obvious to him, wouldnt even register in the moment under the circumstances.

How am I blaming the victim? Facts are slowly coming out, he had no idea what hit him...

If your door gets kicked in, you're grabbing a handgun, not a long gun to investigate? You hear a loud noise and don't check your cameras? Everything points to he had no idea it was the AFT, but they surely were gunning for him...

 

[Leadeye]

A problem that really has it's roots in federal people trying to impress their bosses. When you have anti gun leadership that conveys it's sentiments very clearly, and your job is gun regulation, it will influence decisions that bring about these results.

I don't know what they were expecting inside the home, but unlike drugs, guns can't be disposed of down the toilet.

Was anybody yelling "ATF, search warrant"?

I would imagine that this operation required some planning and at least a pre raid briefing, that info would be very important to see if it is available.

 

[chipbennett]

Why was a SWAT response necessary for this search warrant service?
Why was the SEAL team cosplay necessary?
Why was cutting power necessary?
Why was blocking the camera necessary?

How is what transpired here functionally any different from the Gestapo?

The man wasn't suspected of committing any violent crimes. The evidence sought through the search warrant wasn't of the nature that it could be easily destroyed or disposed of.

 

[dsol]

This country really needs a Henry Bowman...

 

[bobzilla]

Why was a SWAT response necessary for this search warrant service?
Why was the SEAL team cosplay necessary?
Why was cutting power necessary?
Why was blocking the camera necessary?

How is what transpired here functionally any different from the Gestapo?

The man wasn't suspected of committing any violent crimes. The evidence sought through the search warrant wasn't of the nature that it could be easily destroyed or disposed of.

We know why. This wasn't a warrant or arrest, this was an execution to show 2A fans what is coming. It was a display of power.

 

[Cameramonkey]

How am I blaming the victim? Facts are slowly coming out, he had no idea what hit him...

If your door gets kicked in, you're grabbing a handgun, not a long gun to investigate? You hear a loud noise and don't check your cameras? Everything points to he had no idea it was the AFT, but they surely were gunning for him...

You said he should have known something was wrong because the living room wasnt lit up, he should have checked his doorbell cam, etc. All things not reasonable presumably 5 seconds after you are roused from a deep sleep by a loud noise.

Anyway Like I said, hard to read your intentions. We'll move on to other aspects so we dont dominate the thread.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

You said he should have known something was wrong because the living room wasnt lit up, he should have checked his doorbell cam, etc. All things not reasonable presumably 5 seconds after you are roused from a deep sleep by a loud noise.

Anyway Like I said, hard to read your intentions. We'll move on to other aspects so we dont dominate the thread.

I got confused, too, at first, but I think the point of confusion is over when @firecadet613 said that a reasonable person wouldn't grab a pistol in these circumstances.

On first reading, it can sound like he's saying a reasonable person wouldn't grab a firearm at all.

But I think what he is actually saying is that a reasonable person would assume the highest threat level, and grab a long gun, because it's a firearm that says "I really need to defend my castle against an invasion right the heck now" as opposed to a pistol which says "I need to go take a little look around, but discreetly have an option to defend myself in case it turns out to be something bad."

In other words, he's not saying that it was unreasonable to not check the cameras or not notice that the lights were out. Rather, he's defending the homeowner's apparent decision to grab a long gun and go straight into defensive mode, by saying that even if he did check the camera and see tape over it, and notice that the lights were out, the most reasonable response is not to think "Oh, I bet this is cops." Rather, it's reasonable to think that whoever is busting his door in right now does not want to be seen or identified, and he should get ready to repel criminal home invader(s.)

Leastways, that's what I'm getting out of his posts right now.

 

[ZurokSlayer7X9]

But I think what he is actually saying is that a reasonable person would assume the highest threat level, and grab a long gun, because it's a firearm that says "I really need to defend my castle against an invasion right the heck now" as opposed to a pistol which says "I need to go take a little look around, but discreetly have an option to defend myself in case it turns out to be something bad."

This is the way I interpreted his comment. If the victim grabbed let's say a 416 Rigby with brass solids, or a Benelli M4 with magic mushroom rounds, well he'd still probably be dead but he wouldn't have been the only one.

 

[Ark]

We know why. This wasn't a warrant or arrest, this was an execution to show 2A fans what is coming. It was a display of power.

ATF never changes.

They love their action, love their raids, and love reminding gun owners that they can be killed more or less at will for administrative crimes.

 

[firecadet613]

But I think what he is actually saying is that a reasonable person would assume the highest threat level, and grab a long gun, because it's a firearm that says "I really need to defend my castle against an invasion right the heck now" as opposed to a pistol which says "I need to go take a little look around, but discreetly have an option to defend myself in case it turns out to be something bad."

In other words, he's not saying that it was unreasonable to not check the cameras or not notice that the lights were out. Rather, he's defending the homeowner's apparent decision to grab a long gun and go straight into defensive mode, by saying that even if he did check the camera and see tape over it, and notice that the lights were out, the most reasonable response is not to think "Oh, I bet this is cops." Rather, it's reasonable to think that whoever is busting his door in right now does not want to be seen or identified, and he should get ready to repel criminal home invader(s.)

Leastways, that's what I'm getting out of his posts right now.

Exactly this! If I hear a small bump in the night, I'm checking my cameras. If they are dark / no light on the clock, it goes up a notch.

If the door gets kicked in, we're not going for a handgun, nor do I think a reasonable person would be...

Why was a SWAT response necessary for this search warrant service?
Why was the SEAL team cosplay necessary?
Why was cutting power necessary?
Why was blocking the camera necessary?

How is what transpired here functionally any different from the Gestapo?

The man wasn't suspected of committing any violent crimes. The evidence sought through the search warrant wasn't of the nature that it could be easily destroyed or disposed of.

100%...

You said he should have known something was wrong because the living room wasnt lit up, he should have checked his doorbell cam, etc. All things not reasonable presumably 5 seconds after you are roused from a deep sleep by a loud noise.

Anyway Like I said, hard to read your intentions. We'll move on to other aspects so we dont dominate the thread.

If I'm awaken by a noise and I notice it's pitch black out (keep in mind, I'm in the woods so it's just an alarm clock giving off light), I know something is wrong.

I get that vibe if the power is knocked out overnight until I realize bad storms are in the area and that's the cause.

I saw you took my statement of reasonable person wouldn't grab a gun vs my intent of they'd grab the biggest they had...

Regardless, AFT is way out of bounds.

 

[BigRed]

How is what transpired here functionally any different from the Gestapo?

It is not.

 

[Shadow01]

These kind of incidences are conditioning scenarios being used by your government to change the mindset of the citizenry going forward. They like the idea that those they “rule” over, fear them.

 

[Leo]

ATF never changes.

They love their action, love their raids, and love reminding gun owners that they can be killed more or less at will for administrative crimes.

Remember Waco, when the ATF showed all the women and children who's boss and shot the ones running out of the back of the burning building? The Local Sheriff was told to stand down, even though him and Koresh had a mutual respect and understanding.

I had hoped that crap had faded away with Janet Reno and slick Willie.

 

[Brian's Surplus]

Remember when the ATF showed all the women and children who's boss and shot the ones running out of the back of the burning building? The Local Sheriff was told to stand down, even though him and Koresh had a mutual respect and understanding.

I had hoped that crap had faded away with Janet Reno and slick Willie.

Unfortunately, this behavior is back (it never completely went away).

I just recently fired off another round of letters to my "representatives" expressing my concerns and calling for the disbandment of ATF. I'm tempted to go into the many reasons that I feel this way, but I would be preaching to the choir (and it would be a LONG read).

Good ATF agents do exist, I've met several. That being said, any "good agent" should really know by now that it's time to find another job. The very existence of ATF is an abomination that never should have been allowed. Despite the MANY opportunities to change this behavior and after the NUMEROUS transgressions committed, this rouge agency refuses to act in accordance with The Constitution (or even basic human decency).


When you read what I have to say next, keep in mind that it happened nearly 20 years ago, and times were much different then. Also, for clarity, it does NOT involve ATF during this part of the incident.

As someone who has been awoken to a search warrant being executed at my house in the early morning, I can say this with some authority. If I had been in the same position, the overall outcome would likely be the same. Luckily for me, the agency serving the warrant at the time decided to contact local law enforcement first. Also luckily for me, they decided to knock on the door. I was armed. I might have just awoken, but I had a visible, holstered HK USP .45 full-size (I don't clearly remember, but I would imagine that my hand was probably on it) and a .22 Magnum High Standard Derringer in my pocket when I answered the door. I also had a camera on the front of the house. As far as I know, they made no attempt to cover it (not that I would have seen it since I was asleep).

When I opened the door, the first person I saw was the uniformed Town Marshall. I knew him well then, and I still know him and his wife well now. I made eye contact with the Town Marshall and he said "Brian, we need to talk". He no sooner got the words out of his mouth and he got shoved out of the way, and I hear "well first, KEEP YOUR HANDS WHERE I CAN SEE THEM!. They were not overly aggressive, but I was quickly relieved of the USP. I told them about the Derringer, and they took that too. I was later informed by the town Deputy (who I also was well acquainted with), that the house was surrounded by the agency serving the warrant, and that they all had guns pointed at the house.

I can tell you right now, that if I had been awoken to a "no-knock" raid, I probably wouldn't be here today. If I opened the door, and the whole situation was the same except the Town Marshall wasn't there, I'm really not sure if I would be here. If I'm half asleep and someone comes charging at me after entering into MY HOME, I'm going to be in fear of my life. When you wake someone up during REM sleep, it takes time for them to realize what's going on. Waking someone up by breaking into their home when they are armed, and then shooting them, is MURDER, plain and simple.

 

[Leadeye]

I'm curious about disconnection of power before serving a warrant. Up to this point I had not heard of it, is it a practice now, and if so, why?

 

[Leo]

I'm curious about disconnection of power before serving a warrant. Up to this point I had not heard of it, is it a practice now, and if so, why?

I would assume it is to shut down any security system and disorient the targeted person in the dark.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. St John 3:19

( I apologize for the out of context application )

 

[indyblue]

I would assume it is to shut down any security system and disorient the targeted person in the dark.

Any security system worth its salt has a battery back up system. I don’t know of any systems that don’t have battery back ups (except for consumer grade cloud junk - ring, blink, etc.). Even my Comcast modem has battery back up, so Internet remains without power.