At what point do you need an FFL?

[bwframe]

Maybe, but we're talking about the ATF here. Even when they spell it out, they change the rules on a whim. What's to stop them from busting both of your hypothetical cases just because the rule is so vague?

So what's to stop them from busting a buyer or seller to one of these hypothetical cases?

 

[Soundslikejosh]

I'm not sure I would.

You've got a guy who works his tail off at work. Comes home, jumps on the internet, sees some cool guns for sale here on INGO, and buys 'em. Meantime, he's a little bored with the last set he bought, so lists them for sale. His job pays well, so it's not unusual for him to buy and sell 3 or 4 handguns a week. He likes trying out new guns, now gadgets for them, etc., and can afford to do so. Sometimes he shows a profit, sometimes not, but anyone looking can see it's clearly a hobby.

Now, Billy Joe Jim Bob comes home from work, sits down at the computer, and starts shopping. He only buys bargains, and negotiates hard to get them. He manages to buy 3-4 handguns a week, and sells the ones he's bought over the last week or so. He won't let them go if he can't make a profit. And won't invest any money he hasn't made from his sales in new purchases. He takes his profits and banks them, but doesn't seem to shoot any of the guns he buys. A reasonable person might think ole BJJB is worthing checking out to see if he's actually running a part time business without the FFL.

Now, there is a lot of subjectivity there. Perhaps BJJB is or isn't running a business. But I'd hate for the first guy not to be able to engage in his hobby because of some arbitrary "one gun a month" law.

Mr. Williams,

IMO, the rate of turn over is more telling than the price he paid or sold at. What kind of person wants to pay high and sell low? Everyone wants to get the best possible transaction, or at least a fair one. Turning a profit does not indicate that the person is trying to run a business. If I only sold one gun this year, I'd still try to turn a profit if possible. Do I need an FFL for that one gun, because I made profit? Further, if a guy buys a gun and plays with it, changes it, accessorizes it before the sale, his sale price is bound to go up due to the cost of the modifications. While it may appear that he is re-selling at a higher price, it may simply reflect his investment.

I appreciate the analogy you present, and think it is worthwhile. I think that my points above may help clear up the intent of the seller. The person who is turning guns back around the very next week doesn't look like a hobbyist to me.

 

[MrsGungho]

I had an FFL explain it to me this way one time

If you are buying guns with the intent to resell it, then you need an FFL. If you know you are going to keep it for at least 24 hours for yourself, then decide you don't like it. Then your don't need an FFL. Doesn't matter if you sell 1 or 50 a month, if your intent was to keep them then you are ok.

Now the funny thing is he gave this same advice to someone else and that someone else has just had his entire gun collection, his computer, his tax records etc confiscated by the ATF. He has been charged for dealing without a license and he will be seeing some prison time I am sure.
Seems the ATF caught wind of what he was doing and bought 4 handguns from him. One each month for 4 months straight. He was selling anywhere from 6-8 guns a week.

So if I was going to be selling mulitiple guns a month, I think I would get an FFL.

 

[Chefcook]

I had an FFL explain it to me this way one time

If you are buying guns with the intent to resell it, then you need an FFL. If you know you are going to keep it for at least 24 hours for yourself, then decide you don't like it. Then your don't need an FFL. Doesn't matter if you sell 1 or 50 a month, if your intent was to keep them then you are ok.

Now the funny thing is he gave this same advice to someone else and that someone else has just had his entire gun collection, his computer, his tax records etc confiscated by the ATF. He has been charged for dealing without a license and he will be seeing some prison time I am sure.
Seems the ATF caught wind of what he was doing and bought 4 handguns from him. One each month for 4 months straight. He was selling anywhere from 6-8 guns a week.

So if I was going to be selling mulitiple guns a month, I think I would get an FFL.

The basis is the honor system. There are people that are less than honorable and will abuse said system. Unfortunately its those abusers that lend validity to those that would like to change the laws and suspend our freedoms...

 

[paddling_man]

The basis is the honor system.

Honor.

Some folks have so much they'll blind you with it. (In a good way.)

Some folks wouldn't know honor if it smacked 'em up the side of the head with a 2x4.

Not that some folks don't need a good 2x4 smacking.​

 

[ocsdor]

Are you doing it as a livelihood (i.e. can you quit your day-job and pay the bills thru gun sales)?

Are you profitting from the gun sales?

If the answers are 'NO' to both, then you are in the clear.

From the way ESRICE describes, he is just a very active hobbiest.

 

[Michiana]

Not exactly true

Are you doing it as a livelihood (i.e. can you quit your day-job and pay the bills thru gun sales)?
Are you profitting from the gun sales?
If the answers are 'NO' to both, then you are in the clear.
From the way ESRICE describes, he is just a very active hobbiest.

Many FFL's like myself do this part time and have no intention of making a living out of being a FFL. I have never found an exact answer to when a person needs to get a FFL to deal in firearms but I would suspect we have a few individuals on INGO that are pushing their luck right now. I would guess if you are buying and selling on a regular basis (who defines regular?) to make a profit you better get yourself a FFL to keep out of trouble. YOU know who you are.

Then you will have to get a business license, State of IN license to sell handguns, do all the paperwork, collect sales tax and make quaterly payments, file income tax on your earnings and have people come to your house instead of doing your gun sales in the Burger King parking lot. Then watch your popularity go bye-bye fast with your existing customers who keep their guns in the lake for safe keeping and try to fly under the radar at all times when it comes to gun purchases.

Some day if the ATF folks come knocking on your door you better save those smart answers for the forums; I don't think they want to hear about your guns falling overboard or you are just building your collection. Time to get out your wallet for a good lawyer and see how much money you saved by not going the right way from day one and get yourself properly licensed.

 

[esrice]

From the way ESRICE describes, he is just a very active hobbiest.

Just to clarify for the readership, those were hypothetical scenarios and I don't participate in regular buying and selling. (I can't even participate in the buying part right now )