At what point do you need an FFL?

[esrice]

At what point does one legally need to obtain an FFL to sell guns?

What's the cutoff point?

Let's say I'm the kinda guy that buys a gun, keeps it for a while, and then decides to sell it. Maybe I do this 3 or 4 times a year. Do I need an FFL?

Or let's say I am buying and selling guns all the time. I like to buy them, polish them up, and then resell them for a small profit. I do this 10 or 12 times a month. I don't have any kind of store front, and I don't deal in new firearms. Do I need an FFL for this?

Where does the government draw the line and say "this is ok", and "you'll need an FFL for that"?

Thanks for the help!

 

[NateIU10]

Here you go, per 18USC44

(C) as applied to a dealer in fire-
arms, as defined in section
921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes
time, attention, and labor to dealing
in firearms as a regular course of
trade or business with the principal
objective of livelihood and profit
through the repetitive purchase and
resale of firearms, but such term
shall not include a person who
makes occasional sales, exchanges,
or purchases of firearms for the en-
hancement of a personal collection or
for a hobby, or who sells all or part of
his personal collection of firearms;

As with most BATFE rules/laws, it seems a bit subjective.

 

[Scutter01]

That's awfully grey, if you ask me. i'd like to see something a little more concrete.

 

[esrice]

Wow that's clear as mud! Thanks for the lookup Nate.

Any FFLs here wanna chime in?

 

[repair]

I would worry more about the IRS, they don't have a sence of humor

If you turn in someone doing that I think that you get a percentage of the recovery..... never turned anyone in but I was told this by someone that worked for the IRS.

All it takes is 1 person to be unhappy about a transaction and then you have people at your house with a microscope.

If you sell that much you need to get a sales licence and be legal.

 

[NateIU10]

That's awfully grey, if you ask me. i'd like to see something a little more concrete.

Wow that's clear as mud! Thanks for the lookup Nate.

Any FFLs here wanna chime in?

I think it's purposely that way. It's open to interpretation, which is what they always want. It's about livelihood and profit through repetitive buying and selling. Now, what numbers are needed, is about as clear as mud

 

[shooter521]

Let's say I'm the kinda guy that buys a gun, keeps it for a while, and then decides to sell it. Maybe I do this 3 or 4 times a year. Do I need an FFL?

Or let's say I am buying and selling guns all the time. I like to buy them, polish them up, and then resell them for a small profit. I do this 10 or 12 times a month. I don't have any kind of store front, and I don't deal in new firearms. Do I need an FFL for this?

Given the definition Nate posted above, and the fact that in your second example you are buying with the intention of re-selling, then I'd say you need an FFL. In example 1, you are not buying with the intent to re-sell, and you aren't selling with enough frequency to be considered a "business" or even "regularly," so you'd be fine.

But then, I'm not the BATFE, nor can I pretend to know how they think (if, in fact, they actually do).

 

[NateIU10]

But then, I'm not the BATFE, nor can I pretend to know how they think (if, in fact, they actually do).

 

[MarkR]

Why not actually call the local office of the BATFE to get a "local branch" interpretation? Or better yet, have "someone else" call on your behalf - from an "anonymous" telephone number.

It would be interesting to hear their response, since they would be enforcing the statute.

 

[shooter521]

Why not actually call the local office of the BATFE to get a "local branch" interpretation?

Why? It wouldn't be legally binding... which is good, because it would most likely be wrong anyway.

 

[NateIU10]

Why? It wouldn't be legally binding... which is good, because it would most likely be wrong anyway.

+1 actually. I contacted the field office once about SBR specifics, and got an answer that didn't make any sense, which I later found out was wrong anyway

 

[ace1627]

He was right when he said it is more for the IRS if you are making a profit. Legally, you do not need a FFL if you buy and sell. You do need a FFL to make transfers or buy new from wholesalers. I would not make a habit of buying from citizens then selling to citizens. Though legal you may get the ATF breathing down your neck. If you buy or sell, go through a FFL to do transfer papers.

 

[NateIU10]

He was right when he said it is more for the IRS if you are making a profit. Legally, you do not need a FFL if you buy and sell. You do need a FFL to make transfers or buy new from wholesalers. I would not make a habit of buying from citizens then selling to citizens. Though legal you may get the ATF breathing down your neck. If you buy or sell, go through a FFL to do transfer papers.

Um wouldn't repeatedly doing that be devoting:

time, attention, and labor to dealing
in firearms as a regular course of
trade or business with the principal
objective of livelihood and profit
through the repetitive purchase and
resale of firearms,

And therefore you would need the FFL.

Also, why do you advocate always going through an FFL? Just curious to your thoughts on that one.

 

[coltaceguy]

If you are buying and selling 10-12 guns a MONTH...

You need an FFL, I know a fellow who thought it was "easy money on the side" to sell guns for profit that he was buying at auctions.

Everyone is right too, the BATF will get you, but it won't be near as bad at the IRS. The guy I know is awaiting sentencing(probably probation) but he is fighting the IRS also for BIG MONEY.

Since you say you are buying to resell, that its "for profit", get an FFL or pay the consequences.

 

[ace1627]

Um wouldn't repeatedly doing that be devoting:

And therefore you would need the FFL.

Also, why do you advocate always going through an FFL? Just curious to your thoughts on that one.

I don't trust anyone as far as I can throw them. It is just good practice. Getting it transferred just takes your name officially off that gun. Sure you could have a bill of sale between two people but there is no proof that gun ever changed hands. As a person to person sale, I would like to have it transferred. I don't know if that guy down the road is going to do a drive by. There is going to be someone to object and say "why sell it to him." Of course if I have any doubts I would never sell it to someone, but when it comes down to it...why risk it. Harmless process to get a firearm transferred after a sale.

 

[IUGradStudent]

If you do 3-4 a year and you buy them beat up and fix them up then I think you have a hobby of fixing up old beat-up guns. You don't want to keep them, but you like fixing them up and sell them at the other end. The definition is clearly subjective, but I don't see how your scenario fits the bill. If it's 10-12 a month, I agree with coltaceguy that that's the sort of thing that looks like FFL territory.

 

[bwframe]

If those that obviously sell a whole lot of firearms in the classifieds avoid posting pictures, does it assist them in flying under the ATFs radar?

 

[Bill of Rights]

If those that obviously sell a whole lot of firearms in the classifieds avoid posting pictures, does it assist them in flying under the ATFs radar?

Probably.

For a while.

 

[Joe Williams]

That's awfully grey, if you ask me. i'd like to see something a little more concrete.

I'm not sure I would.

You've got a guy who works his tail off at work. Comes home, jumps on the internet, sees some cool guns for sale here on INGO, and buys 'em. Meantime, he's a little bored with the last set he bought, so lists them for sale. His job pays well, so it's not unusual for him to buy and sell 3 or 4 handguns a week. He likes trying out new guns, now gadgets for them, etc., and can afford to do so. Sometimes he shows a profit, sometimes not, but anyone looking can see it's clearly a hobby.

Now, Billy Joe Jim Bob comes home from work, sits down at the computer, and starts shopping. He only buys bargains, and negotiates hard to get them. He manages to buy 3-4 handguns a week, and sells the ones he's bought over the last week or so. He won't let them go if he can't make a profit. And won't invest any money he hasn't made from his sales in new purchases. He takes his profits and banks them, but doesn't seem to shoot any of the guns he buys. A reasonable person might think ole BJJB is worthing checking out to see if he's actually running a part time business without the FFL.

Now, there is a lot of subjectivity there. Perhaps BJJB is or isn't running a business. But I'd hate for the first guy not to be able to engage in his hobby because of some arbitrary "one gun a month" law.

 

[Scutter01]

Maybe, but we're talking about the ATF here. Even when they spell it out, they change the rules on a whim. What's to stop them from busting both of your hypothetical cases just because the rule is so vague?