AR Question, Why you used what you did

[Tamara]

I've worked in manufacturing and engineering for several years (before and after military service) and Tamara's summary is FAIRLY accurate.

I base my information from my time spent working at a Type 08 FFL, working on getting ATF variances, and dealing with various actual manufacturers (CMT et al) to get our own house-brand lowers.

The CNC variances in companies who machine from 80% forgings come from when they change certain dimensions or from a lack of final QC.

 

[the1kidd03]

Yeah, I built one of those rifles that cost a lot. But I'm not afraid to beat on it either. It hasn't been scratched yet that I noticed but I don't baby it either.

the1kidd03 does bring up a good point. Don't buy something you're not willing to use. If you're gonna focus on the cost and be afraid to actually use it, don't buy it. Sort of like that old saying "Never hire someone you can't fire", Never buy something you won't/can't use.

 

[the1kidd03]

I base my information from my time spent working at a Type 08 FFL, working on getting ATF variances, and dealing with various actual manufacturers (CMT et al) to get our own house-brand lowers.

The CNC variances in companies who machine from 80% forgings come from when they change certain dimensions or from a lack of final QC.

They are all 80% at SOME point, BUT a VERY few companies may forge and machine all together under the same roof.

There are DOZENS of possible reasons why dimensions CAN become off. Too many to simply list and "investigate" here. The point is, that QC is flawed anyhow. It will ALWAYS allow some "defective" products out the door. Some testing methods actually require affecting the product to the extent it can't even be sold and so again, not EVERY part gets QC'd at the level a company wishes to portray it does. It's all about marketing. In order to make money, they must sell. In order to sell, they must make people think their product is better if they can't/aren't willing to make it cheaper. Too often, this results in stretching/bending the truth so much that it is borderline flat out lies. Marketing departments' job is to sell. How they get that done is of little concern to a company. Just another reason why I would almost put more faith into the "little" companies over the big guys who can afford professional marketing.

As far as changing the "dimensions" within the programming of their CNC, that is one area where problems can be created. As the rights to the orginal program (design) were sold, it was intended to not vary from the original spec (and probably noted by disclaimers.) BUT, different machines operate on different software and programming methods so they must be converted which leaves room for human error. Also, if a company continually receives reports of problems with a certain product (whether there is one or not) they will begin to look for possible causes, and this can result in more human error and the perceived need to alter design specs or programming (even if it is actually not needed and mistaken for other issues.)

 

[1Spider]

This was a good read for me. I plan on building my first one and all the information here has given me a lot to consider.

 

[the1kidd03]

Something like a lower receiver, buy whatever you want. You are likely not going to be sacrificing anything worth worrying about and yet saving money. When it comes to things like handguards, for example, there are slight differences. Different materials, thicknesses, design specs, etc which can all contribute to different feels, weights, prices, functionality affects, cooling, etc. But, common "across the board" parts like lowers, aren't going to make or break you no matter what you buy.

I've built SEVERAL with the "Surplus Arms" lowers. I've heard/read that they are a "subsidiary" of Spikes Tactical. Regardless, they are only around $65 and they have functioned just as well as any "top shelf" brand name parts. Again, don't buy a "name" unless you just want to flaunt it. But don't associate it with "better quality." Not usually, necessarily true.

 

[the1kidd03]

Just for example, my company uses parts from places which are also sold direct to public. When designing something and I log onto their website to place an order, it's the same website that the public purchases from. They are well known for their name, but take the parts apart and they are identical to other companies' products with some little cosmetic differences. BUT, look at their pricing and you will see the difference.

Obviously, this company is going to make a profit on EVERYTHING they sell, no matter who buys it. When logging onto their site I see both prices. My company's price and the public's price. It is LITERALLY around a 300% markup on everything. What my company pays is almost ALWAYS about 1/3 the price the public pays if not less. The point is, you're paying for a "name" not better quality. When a company gets popular by word of mouth for having good product for good price, they get more orders. Then they can't keep up and must increase prices to reduce their demand. So, they become a good product at a FAIR price. If demand persists then they will increas prices again resulting in a good product for a high price and yet it is IDENTICAL to their competitor's product. Some people will pay the high price, other's won't. That price doesn't mean the product is any better, it just means that people know the name. It means the name has gotten out to a lot of people, thus increasing demand. That also means they have a good marketing department sometimes. Now, remember their goal...to SELL.

 

[dom1104]

I used Daniel Defense and Noveske.

I paid 85 for the DD lowers, and 120 I think for the Noveske ones.

Use DD uppers on the DD lowers, and Noveske uppers on the Noveske lowers.

So far I have been very happy with the fit and matching finishes, but I dont think it makes much difference in the end.

All my DD guns have DD parts, and Noveske guns have Noveske parts, but thats just how I roll.

Keep it... uniform.

 

[Hookeye]

I'm going billet for my next lower, actually have an old coworker who manufactures them -wrote his own program

 

[chuddly]

On my precision AR15s I prefer to totally ignore Mil-Spec and go with BEST-Spec. Mil-Spec sets a minimum standard that must be met. But it also sets a maximum standard by default. Its very easy to buy better than mil-spec, much better!

I agree....but are we talking about building a everyday use gun on a budget or are we talking about $4000 match grade gun that only comes out in nice weather and doesnt know what dirt is?

 

[sepe]

I put around $800 into a Palmetto State Armory build (including shipping and transfer). I checked the specs of the rifle I wanted vs. some of the bigger names. If it specs out the same, I'm not paying more for a name or a "cool" roll mark.

 

[kolob10]

I think over the years I have shot/built most of the "named" recievers. The only ones I've had an issue fitting was a couple Bushmasters and a Oylmpic Arms. All of these only required minor modification on internals. Put your money in the barrels if you want a good shooter - & put your money in Stag or Rock River if you want a safe queen. I can put any lower under a good shooting upper and see little or no difference in accuracy. That being said, I have a couple old kit guns that were put together with "whatever was left over from the last few builds" and they shine on the range.

 

[davedolli]

I have a few, some are factory builds, some are Fankin builds. The Frankin builds consist of parts I bought mostly this forum, and everything went together great. I use mil-spec or better parts on all. The biggest problem I have had is every time I buy a stripped lower just to keep back for extra parts, it isn't long until I see a good deal on an upper, and here we go again.

Dave

 

[JonProphet]

I bought a complete gun because the price was right. As I've said on multiple threads, I'm new to AR's. But I did do some research and I usually learn most from buying wrong and fixing it to the way I like.

One thing I learned last night was that Delaware Arms machined their own lowers. From what I read, some of their lowers had some issues with holes not matching up correctly.

Given that, just do your research. Stick to Mil-spec and listen to the horror stories after people built and actually fired the weapon.

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

I've had upper/lower fit ranging from needing a pin punch and hammer to shove the pin out to being able to push it out with my finger and pull it with my thumbnail (though not one that would spontaneously disassemble ) I've even had one of the infamous cast lowers (Eagle Arms) and wouldn't hesitate to have one again. They're making polymer ones now, people, how bad can cast aluminum be? I've picked up some 80% lowers and a fixture. I'm so anal about tolerance when I make something you can bet I'll be dead center on every spec, but that's just me. Haven't decided on finish yet, may do that myself, too.

 

[GMan]

Thanks Everyone this thread took off a lot bigger then I thought it would. I appreciate everyones thoughts and explanations. I have learned quite abit.