AR Question, Why you used what you did

[GMan]

OK I'm new so be gentle I'm totally new at building a rifle so here goes, What is the difference in lower recievers? What I mean by that is I've been reading and 1 person is using a "ABC" receiver and someone else is using a "XYZ" receiver? What is the big differences besides the name? Are some better quality then others, is it only because thats what was available at the time ect. (this is where I'm going to get HUH?) Arent they all relativley the same? Or does ABC mate better with a DEF upper then XYZ does? I would think they would all have to meet certain spec's to be sold. I don't want to drop a fortune on a name, but I do want to understand what it is I should be looking for in general.

 

[Tamara]

OK I'm new so be gentle I'm totally new at building a rifle so here goes, What is the difference in lower recievers? What I mean by that is I've been reading and 1 person is using a "ABC" receiver and someone else is using a "XYZ" receiver? What is the big differences besides the name? Are some better quality then others, is it only because thats what was available at the time ect. (this is where I'm going to get HUH?) Arent they all relativley the same? Or does ABC mate better with a DEF upper then XYZ does? I would think they would all have to meet certain spec's to be sold. I don't want to drop a fortune on a name, but I do want to understand what it is I should be looking for in general.

Wow, complicated topic!

One of the first things you'll hear is "all receivers only come from a few different places", which is both true and also misleading.

It is true in that there are only a few companies actually forging AR lowers. The thing is, what happens after they pop out of the forge?

A lot of smaller companies will buy complete lowers from, say, Continental Machine Tool, and thanks to the magic of an ATF Variance Letter, they will ship with the company's name already roll-marked on the gun. So although the receiver says "Anytown Tactical, Yourstate, USA", it was really made in Connecticut.

Conversely, a lot of companies have their own CNC machinery, and will buy the forgings from the manufacturer as blanks or "80% lowers", which they will then finish-machine and anodize themselves on-site. This is fine if "Yourcity Tactical Arms" knows what they're doing, and not so much so if they don't...

 

[sumphead]

You will get varying opinions on this. Some will say mil-spec is mil-spec and it doesn't matter. Others will argue to avoid X brand and Y brand. I suggest sticking with mil-spec. But IMHO the most important factor is how well the lower and upper fit together. Palmetto State Armory makes a decent product for cheap as does many others. I have fired many parts ARs with no issues. Hope this helps

 

[GMan]

Tamara, sumphead that was actually pretty painless for as vague as I was, but you did clear it up pretty well So Thank you both for your responses.

 

[melensdad]

Generally the name on the lower and the upper are pretty much pointless.

What goes inside, the barrel quality, the fire controls, and the assembly are what makes it shoot straight.

I've got some AR15s that are budget builds, others that cost a couple grand. Two have trigger systems that cost roughly $300 just for that assembly. There are differences.

Build what you want. I can pretty easily build you a rifle that will knock a fly off the wall at 100 yards and do it with a cast lower receiver (everyone will tell you it MUST be forged) so ignore the name and buy what you want. I said many years ago that AR15s are like LEGOS for adults. These rifles are inherently accurate and can be made superbly so.

In the hands of someone unfamiliar with my rifle one of the other INGO members put 5 shots into just over a 1/4" this past Saturday at the Winamac range. That gun is a 'parts' gun made from a bunch of different brand components.

 

[Electronrider]

You are all wrong wrong wrong. Only one thing matters on a lower receiver:

How cool is the roll mark!

 

[chuddly]

i agree with what the guys are saying....now some have a little better fit and finish than others. But to me (ONLY MY OPINION) that is not worth the extreme price difference in most cases. I also like to stay with mil-spec....its just me nothing else. I also wont put a composite lower on a gun. People say they are great but i just cant bring myself to put plastic parts on a structural part of the gun.

 

[OneBadV8]

Eh, I'm a brand whore. I'll only buy certain brands. Mainly because they do have a good name, good track record with quality, good service, and still produce a good product. Some other companies with big recognizable names try to sell poor quality products based on their name alone (newer Colt).

It also depends what you want the rifle for and what things matter for you. Barrels are one thing that can spend anywhere from $150 - $400 depending on what specs matter more to you and how you intend to use it.

They are a lot of fun though, Good luck on your build!

 

[melensdad]

. . .I also like to stay with mil-spec. . .

On my precision AR15s I prefer to totally ignore Mil-Spec and go with BEST-Spec. Mil-Spec sets a minimum standard that must be met. But it also sets a maximum standard by default. Its very easy to buy better than mil-spec, much better!

 

[HICKMAN]

Having just built a "Franken" AR, I used a mix of all kinds of stuff.

You can pay more for lowers if you want certain names to brag about or cool etchings, but I just found the lowest prices one in stock that I could.

Most of my AR is used stuff, but I bought a new Daniel Defense barrel, which is probably the only piece I would have bought new if I had the choice.

Advice and Accessories thread:
https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/accessories_and_gear/207664-ar_stuff_seeking_advice.html

Grips:
https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/accessories_and_gear/209229-ar_hand_grips.html


Build thread:
https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/long_guns/209337-franken_ar_build_thread_hickman_style.html


Most recent pic:

 

[LPMan59]

I bought a Colt because simply owning a Pony causes severe butthurt in the fanboys of certain companies.

I then built a franken gun with a Bushie upper because 20 inch A4 uppers with 1/7 CL MP/HPI government uppers are uncommon.

 

[the1kidd03]

I've worked in manufacturing and engineering for several years (before and after military service) and Tamara's summary is FAIRLY accurate.

What happens is that companies hire other companies to produce a product to a certain point of completion to keep their costs down. For example, the bagels you buy at stores with names like "Thomas" on them, aren't actually made by Thomas. They are made by "3rd party manufacturers." One of which is right here in Indianapolis. Thomas simply "manufactures the name," thus making them a "label manufacturer."

Again, most products are produced in this same fashion. They do this because it is cheaper to have your company specialize in one aspect of labor and have another company who specializes in other aspects complete those for you. It's much cheaper by not having to pay for equipment, maintenance, additional personnel, training, benefits, etc. Also, having one company handle several areas of production DECREASES their productivity which is why they specialize in very limited areas.

So, company "A" completes part 1 of a 2 part production process. Then they ship their completed product to company "B" for the final step in the process which they specialize in. Company "B" then packages the completed product in company "C's" packaging and ships it to warehouses, distribution centers, etc. Company "C" is who's name is on the packaging and sells the product as though they made it, when this is not really true.

Every company has their own Quality Control (QC) processes. Some people will tell you, "this company does ****,****,*** to test their product." This may be true, BUT they don't do it to EVERY part they sell. That would simply cost too much in labor. They generally test only one or two out of a "batch" of the product. So, out of an entire pallet of product that goes out the door, MAYBE 1 of them were actually inspected.

As far as Tamara's reference to the CNC work quality, it's really a "non-issue." CNC machines are not individually programmed. In this case, company "C" would have a pre-set program to "plug" into a CNC machine which they legally "own." When they strike a deal with company "B" to produce their product they "lend" that program to them to run on their CNC machines. The part gets run through the machine and out comes several hundred of "identical" products. So, it's really not a matter of "whether or not they know what they're doing." They do know what they are doing and even so, there is little margin of error in this process due to labor side. The "issues" come when Company "B" does not have a CNC machine with very "tight" tolerances, or doesn't maintain the equipment as they should which also affects tolerances. Something as SMALL as an old, run-down bit in the machine will drastically affect the tolerances of the part it's running. So again, it's not a matter of "knowing what they are doing" because they follow the processes and procedures set forth by company "C" (the "owner" of the product.)

I build my own AR's and for friends/family. I have for years. I've also bought several complete rifles from various manufacturers. Between that, and all my time around the military I can almost guarantee I've at least USED if not OWNED nearly every "name" of AR out there. I've seen IDENTICAL parts from the SAME 3rd party manufacturers get put on HALF A DOZEN different "label manufacturers" products. I've seen the same forged parts used on S&W, Daniel Defense, Rock River, Colt, DPMS, etc. The ONLY thing different is WHO has their name laser engraved on the side and often times the QUALITY of the anodizing.

Basically, these parts are "forged" at a few companies who specialize in that. You can usually see their forging marks on the parts. Then they get sent to another company for machining work. Then on to a "finisher" to apply the anodizing. Then on to the "supply chain." These "cheap" manufacturers you have coming up and out of the wood work are simply those machining companies who have obtained rights to the CNC programming for lowers from somewhere (it's all the same program made by the orginal designers.) Then they simply found a local finishing company to apply their own anodizing, and thus become their own manufacturer of the parts (especially lowers.) They are simply a machine shop which wants to get in on the "gun market" by cutting out other "middle men" and so they can produce the same product at a lower cost because it gets passed between fewer people and they don't have the "demand" of the big names like Colt. This is why you will often hear me say "you're simply paying for a name." I advocate against this, because often you are not getting anything more for your money.

There is no real answer to your question. It's simply going to be a matter of what you're comfortable with using for your purposes. The military puts forth a set of standards which they want all parts to meet. That doesn't in itself make them better quality, that simply means that they must meet AT LEAST that standard to be used by the military. A lot of people feel that if it meets that standard then it will satisfy their needs, and that's fine. Again, this is up to you.

My personal experience, you won't often notice a difference which you can contribute to the manufacturers. You will get a "bad apple" from a certain brand here or there and that experience leaves a "bad taste" in the mouth of the purchaser, but that is only ONE of that makers guns. That purchaser then swears said maker off, forever. I'm more of the type who will troubleshoot issues, fix, repair, modify anything mechanical to make it work and work better. Especially, when it comes to guns. I don't like to get rid of them. I will practically completely rebuild a gun before I'm willing to get rid of it or "swear it off." I don't have a concern buying parts (lowers ESPECIALLY) from nearly any manufacturer available. The chances of them being truly lesser quality is little. I build many of my own with the "cheap" lowers because I don't intend to sell them again, and they run 100% every time. I've had MORE problems with FACTORY built guns than my own builds with CHEAP parts. That doesn't mean I swear off factory builds, but unless I come across a good deal I'd rather build my own and save $$.

It would also help to know, that I don't own "safe queens." I don't "baby" my guns. I train with them and I train hard. I believe in the thought "train hard so combat seems easy." I don't care if it gets wet, muddy, dirty, beat up, etc. That is why I don't often go to public ranges because how we train isn't considered "safe" in the civilian world, but I still make sure safety is a priority when operating a public range. When I get home I take care of them. Inspect and clean them properly and I don't have any issues due to the gun. I'd almost believe that if you "baby" a gun, then you get a "baby of a gun" because it seems I don't have problems when I beat the hell out of them. When I have a "baby" gun, it seems to give me issues. I know this is not true because of my mechanical/engineerin experience, but it sure does seem that way when looking back.

 

[HICKMAN]

It would also help to know, that I don't own "safe queens." I don't "baby" my guns. I train with them and I train hard. I believe in the thought "train hard so combat seems easy." I don't care if it gets wet, muddy, dirty, beat up, etc.

Amen, I wasn't worried about buying brand new or scratching anything while putting my together.... it's probably gonna get a cheap krylon camo job to break up the outline anyway.

 

[the1kidd03]

Amen, I wasn't worried about buying brand new or scratching anything while putting my together.... it's probably gonna get a cheap krylon camo job to break up the outline anyway.

yup....I often buy NEW parts simply because you have no idea who you're buying from and if they know the first thing about PROPERLY taking care of the gun. BUT, the name stamped on the side means very LITTLE to me. I'll run it through "the ringer" no matter who's name is on it. So, why would I want to spend $3k on something I beat to hell? LOL I think that if you spend too much on that "name" than you more likely to NOT use it like you "should" or when/as much as you need to because you'll be scared to "hurt" it.

 

[LPMan59]

yup....I often buy NEW parts simply because you have no idea who you're buying from and if they know the first thing about PROPERLY taking care of the gun. BUT, the name stamped on the side means very LITTLE to me. I'll run it through "the ringer" no matter who's name is on it. So, why would I want to spend $3k on something I beat to hell? LOL I think that if you spend too much on that "name" than you more likely to NOT use it like you "should" or when/as much as you need to because you'll be scared to "hurt" it.

nonsense. Colt and BCM come beat up NIB. They take the pain of the first scratch out of the equation.

Of course, both of these companies build rifles that are meant to be combat -durable, so that makes sense.

 

[the1kidd03]

nonsense. Colt and BCM come beat up NIB. They take the pain of the first scratch out of the equation.

Of course, both of these companies build rifles that are meant to be combat -durable, so that makes sense.

Usually, if you take an out of the armory M4 and set it next to one of my random personal builds, you won't be able to tell the difference merely by finish/condition.

 

[the1kidd03]

I had a really nice, stainless 1911 once but at the time I didn't have a very deep budget and it cost me a lot of money. It was an AWESOME shooter and felt GREAT. BUT, it looked so nice and cost so much (it seemed at the time) that I barely wanted to take it out of the safe and shoot it, much less carry it. I no longer have that one and most handguns I buy used because that is what they are for (defense) and so you must practice with them. I don't often buy pistols new anymore.

 

[N_K_1984]

Usually, if you take an out of the armory M4 and set it next to one of my random personal builds, you won't be able to tell the difference merely by finish/condition.

Side Note: Hell yeah!

 

[the1kidd03]

Side Note: Hell yeah!

LOL, that's why I said one of the only REAL noticeable differences in manufacturers is the quality of the finish. Sometimes, they use a sub-par "finisher" and it actually completely scratches or even FLAKES off when used like I do. Other than that, mechanically they are equally sound though.

 

[OneBadV8]

Yeah, I built one of those rifles that cost a lot. But I'm not afraid to beat on it either. It hasn't been scratched yet that I noticed but I don't baby it either.

the1kidd03 does bring up a good point. Don't buy something you're not willing to use. If you're gonna focus on the cost and be afraid to actually use it, don't buy it. Sort of like that old saying "Never hire someone you can't fire", Never buy something you won't/can't use.