AR-15 inventor would be horrified and sickened.

[Gary119]

Depends on the situation. Can I/we retreat? What are the surroundings? Are they doing "spray and pray", or taking well-aimed, well-timed shots? Do I have a Glock 19 with a standard mag or a S&W 5-shot .32? Do I have a Rem 870 or a Rem 700?

Every situation is different. What if it's 10 bad guys instead of 3? My answer will vary. In actual experience, merely brandishing my shotgun behind a screen door was enough to scare off an unknown number of intruders at my mother's farm late one night. Had I been fired upon, I would have retreated to a more defensible position and waited for them to act. No hope for police, as the nearest cop would have been anywhere from 10 to 60 minutes away. I would do the best I could with the tools I had. Wishing for something more won't make a difference.

What if the 1st shot from one of those bad guys hits the receiver and jams your AR? Magazine size won't matter to you then...

Nope, you/yours are trapped. No other variables. Someone is going to die. Would you want less capacity than them or more? If they had 10, 20 or 30. Would you be content with 5 or 10?

 

[indiucky]

Other than, ya know, "life/health of the mother", don't have the cash to properly raise that child, etc..

So what's the limit???? How many can she have???? At what point does she no longer need one????? Two??? Three????? Six????? Come on...You are a numbers guy...Numbers matter...Give us a number??? You seem obsessed with numbers and saving lives so shoot (pardon the pun) a number.....

Due to your current economic situation you may want to back pedal on the "don't have cash to properly raise that child"....By that logic....Well...You are a smart guy, you can figure out how hypocritical that sounds.......

 

[BogWalker]

Nope, you/yours are trapped. No other variables. Someone is going to die. Would you want less capacity than them or more? If they had 10, 20 or 30. Would you be content with 5 or 10?

I'm sure he'll take the logically honest route and pick the Mauser rifle that he said up thread would be adequate for all of the rest of us.

Oh wait, no he won't, he's extra special and of course will have an evil AR-15 with evil 30 round magazines. Well, it's not evil when he has them because he has a neck injury you know.

 

[BogWalker]

In each example you posted (with the exception of the Koreatown riot), no more than 2 shots were fired. They could have used K98 Mausers and been as effective.

Any examples of when someone need 30 rounds, or 100??

I bring forth post #202 as my evidence. Unless he's willing to admit there are home defense situations in which 30 round magazines are a necessity.

 

[jamil]

I don't recall saying those uses were INAPPROPRIATE. What I recall stating (or at least inferring) is that using a 30-, 60- or 100-round mag for such uses wasn't appropriate or justifiable (comp shooting excluded). HD, varmint control, hunting, etc., were all done effectively before the introduction of the AR.

WTF?

Dude, I quoted what you said IN THE POST you replied to. It's kinda what we've been going back and forth about? You said "not appropriate". It's okay though. We become more forgetful as we age. So for your convenience, this is what you said:

"just that an AR (in its current design) is not appropriate for most applications"

Now, I understand what you meant by "current design" because I remember you saying this:

The issues being raised are, again, the power of the round and the capacity of the firearm (both in terms of magazine capacity and speed of reloading). It is not a great design challenge to create an 5-8 round internal magazine, nor to make reloading a slower, more complicated process. Either would reduce the ability of someone to use such a modified AR in scenarios such as Aurora, Sandy Hook or Orlando. It would not prevent it, but it would REDUCE THE LIKELIHOOD, which is what a lot of people want.

You think the capacity makes the AR inappropriate for civilian use. You've given me opinions and feelings about why you're right. I've given you empirical data that tends to support my opinion. It's a very popular rifle also because it has versatile uses. If laws were passed that made mandatory 5-8 round internal magazine, it's versatility, and therefore it's overall usefulness would be diminished. Here's why.

The following is something else you said.

"Neither the AR nor the 1903 is a proper "home defense" weapon, no matter the furniture or add-ons. Just too much chance for over-penetration."

Since you're knowledgeable about firearms you should understand that any firearm that fires a cartridge powerful enough to effectively stop a man, will certainly be powerful enough to go through walls. Hell, even 22lr will go through walls.

The AR-15/clone, loaded with descent self defense ammo, is an excellent tool for home defense. That's my opinion based on actual information and not feelings. Having detachable 30 round mags means that you're prepared for handling a wider range of situations. Sure, requiring AR-15s to have internal mags limited to 5-8 rounds will turn the rifle into a club after 5-8 rounds. And if that's all the Mateen had, sure, the death toll would be less.

If that's all that was available, a rifle that becomes a club after 5-7 rounds, what makes you so sure Mateen would have brought that with him? But the more important point, on some whim that the bad guys will limit themselves to the same neutered guns that limit law abiding citizens, you're also going to limit my ability to use the tool that I think is best for the job. In a self defense situation where there are multiple attackers, I'd rather have a rifle than a club.

So far you've only offered your opinions about the appropriate use of AR-15 as available now. To prove your opinion false, I only had to mention one appropriate use. I mentioned several. Saying that you can do all those things with other guns might be true, but it isn't an argument that proves the inappropriateness of the AR.

 

[jamil]

Problem is, his kind is winning.

That's not the reason. It's that both sides are simply more polarized. There's no "middle ground" anymore, because people have learned that if you take your argument to an extreme (think of 2 men hand-cuffed together, and one is willing to jump off a cliff to get what he wants), you're more likely to get what you want. The discussion has become a "zero-sum" game, and we know from experience that the crazy folks tend to win.



I shop at Kroger's. Ya know, the "middle ground" grocery store. Also, Cracker Barrel is a restaurant, while Whole Foods is a grocery.

Both sides are more polarized, which is a natural thing as we shift from a Cracker Barrel society to Whole Foods. By the way, Cracker Barrel vs Whole Foods kind of became a thing back around the midterm. Senate Control Could Come Down To Whole Foods vs. Cracker Barrel | FiveThirtyEight

That's the divide. There is a clash of cultures, and the natural consequence as society shifts from one to the other, is polarization. Cracker Barrel people--not saying anything about the chain--are the ones who voted for BREXIT. They're the ones who overwhelmingly voted for Republicans in 2014. They helped Trump win the nomination, unfortunately. Their culture WAS "middle" 30 years ago. They had the political power. But as Overton's window shifted to the left, they're just rejecting the cultural change. They're only "crazy" now because of that.

 

[Dirtebiker]

You have no need for competition shooting. Surrender your magazines over 10 rounds in capacity.

Oh, and people with neck injuries shot effectively before the AR was invented as well.

You have no case for why you should have one and we shouldn't.

But his IQ is "around 140".* surely anyone that "smart" can have anything he wants.



*He's so smart, he can't remember the exact number!?

 

[Dirtebiker]

Citations, please. And don't presume to understand the level of pain I deal with on a daily issue.



My case has been...repeated ad nauseum...for the FUNDAMENTAL DESIGN of the AR (i.e., the in-line barrel, BCG, and buffer assembly), not the CAPACITY of the magazine. The design allows me to shoot without pain, something few other designs allow.

As I have also stated, I own an AR in 300 Blackout. I can turn the gas off, making it similar to a bolt-action in the need to physically cycle the action for the next round.

Quit your crying already!
I'll guarantee there are plenty of members here that live with as much or more pain than you, but you don't see anyone else constantly whining about it!
Does a single shot .22 hurt you? Who "needs" anything more?
You surely have no "need" for the 300 Blackout.
You never responded to my offer (or the others) to "compensate" you for your AR's. How about it?
Put MY money where YOUR mouth is! Sell your guns that you DON'T NEED or you're nothing more than a hypocrite!

 

[Dirtebiker]

Other than, ya know, "life/health of the mother", don't have the cash to properly raise that child, etc.

I suspect many in INGO have more ARs than the typical woman has abortions...

How much cash does a pregnant woman need to have on hand to avoid an abortion?

 

[Dirtebiker]

Depends on the situation. Can I/we retreat? What are the surroundings? Are they doing "spray and pray", or taking well-aimed, well-timed shots? Do I have a Glock 19 with a standard mag or a S&W 5-shot .32? Do I have a Rem 870 or a Rem 700?

Every situation is different. What if it's 10 bad guys instead of 3? My answer will vary. In actual experience, merely brandishing my shotgun behind a screen door was enough to scare off an unknown number of intruders at my mother's farm late one night. Had I been fired upon, I would have retreated to a more defensible position and waited for them to act. No hope for police, as the nearest cop would have been anywhere from 10 to 60 minutes away. I would do the best I could with the tools I had. Wishing for something more won't make a difference.

What if the 1st shot from one of those bad guys hits the receiver and jams your AR? Magazine size won't matter to you then...

Good job dancing around.
Surely you have at least one or two weapons at hand for defense in your home? What are they? What is the capacity of each?

 

[Dirtebiker]

Not at all. I simply would like you to cite medical information regarding the effects of felt recoil on someone with a severely-damaged spine. In my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, I can shoot an AR with less pain than a bolt-action.



30-round. Would I trade them in for 10-round mags if that were to become law? Yes, as I wish to remain a legal shooter.



Getting up from the rifle to cycle the action manually would likely be quite painful on my lower back. It's worse than my neck.



.22LR? I have a conversion kit for my AR if I wish to shoot that caliber. As for the 300 Blackout, I chose it because the majority of parts are interchangeable with my other ARs.

Why wait? "Nobody NEEDS 30 rd magazines"
What do you have to "get up" for?

 

[Dirtebiker]

I don't know if he is telling the truth or not regarding ownership, but I am satisfied you have his nature down. I would also point out that Samuel Adams had something to say about him:



It is also apparent that he has no problem with authoritarian government so long as it is basically aligned with his idea of right and proper.

Extremely appropriate quote!

 

[Hookeye]

High capacity magazines are for sporting use.
Keeping politicians fearful is a sport- declared as such by the Founding Fathers.

 

[david890]

Witnesses report seeing him walk around executing those who were lying injured.

So, you want someone already shot with an AR to get up and fight back? Yeah...

He had to reload at least a couple times. He had to have his back to part of crowd some of the time.

That crowd was either A) wounded or B) trying to get the hell out of there.

If I believe I'm about to eat a bullet regardless, yes, I would take any opportunity possible. Would I eat a bullet any way? very likely (the guys on flight 93 knew they were probably dead either way, too).

The folks on Flight 93 had NO OPTION TO RETREAT. Many of those in Orlando did. The wounded? Not so much...

 

[david890]

It's a very popular rifle also because it has versatile uses.

None of which requires the use of a high-cap magazine for the general population.

If laws were passed that made mandatory 5-8 round internal magazine, it's versatility, and therefore it's overall usefulness would be diminished.

Unproven.

The AR-15/clone, loaded with descent self defense ammo, is an excellent tool for home defense.

What ammo would that be?

Sure, requiring AR-15s to have internal mags limited to 5-8 rounds will turn the rifle into a club after 5-8 rounds. And if that's all the Mateen had, sure, the death toll would be less.

Which is why people want to ban hi-cap magazines.

If that's all that was available, a rifle that becomes a club after 5-7 rounds, what makes you so sure Mateen would have brought that with him?

I'm not "sure", but since it was a recent purchase, had the AR been redesigned after Sandy Hook for a 5-round internal mag, that's likely all that would have been available. Black market? Sure, but that might have raised flags; bad guys can be patriotic, too.

 

[david890]

*He's so smart, he can't remember the exact number!?

I've been tested 3 times: 139, 145 and 152. So, yes, "around 140" is accurate. Depends on many factors the day you were tested. Just like almost every other kind of test.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

What do you do with the millions of detachable box magazine ARs out there, should Congress and the president ever sign a law into effect that bans them?
Say there's a buy-back-program that gives each person $1000 per AR -- even the ones that only cost $700 -- and let's say 50% of the people choose not to comply. Do you support government force to SWAT a house, flash bang kids, shoot dogs, and possibly people in order to enforce the law? A law that makes an inanimate object completely illegal, only because of certain, perceived, dangerous, and "un-needed" features...you would you support such a law? If you say "no" then you must consider that all laws, if they're to be enforced, must come with the implied threat of deadly force at the point of a gun -- a gun that only the police and the criminals will have but you won't.

 

[david890]

You never responded to my offer (or the others) to "compensate" you for your AR's. How about it?
Put MY money where YOUR mouth is! Sell your guns that you DON'T NEED or you're nothing more than a hypocrite!

Okay; I'll keep one AR. So, that will be $800 my AR pistol, and $900 for the Blackout. You'll need to buy two of my suppressors, as I would no longer have use for them: $700 for the AAC M4-1000, and $700 for the AAC Cyclone. Finally, you'd need to pony some more for the 7.62 reloading gear I have. Let's say $50 for the die set.

That comes to $3150, not to mention the 2 NFA stamps for the transfer. Total is now $3450. Which Class 3 dealer you want to use?

 

[Mark-DuCo]

None of which requires the use of a high-cap magazine for the general population.



Unproven.



What ammo would that be?



Which is why people want to ban hi-cap magazines.



I'm not "sure", but since it was a recent purchase, had the AR been redesigned after Sandy Hook for a 5-round internal mag, that's likely all that would have been available. Black market? Sure, but that might have raised flags; bad guys can be patriotic, too.

How will buying something on the black market raise flags exactly? It is the black market for a reason, there is no government intervention to raise a flag.

 

[david890]

What do you have to "get up" for?

The quote of mine was in reference to the need to cycle the action manually after turning off the gas block. I haven't been in a prone position for years, so that's out. If I'm sitting at a bench, there's still a bit of sitting up that would be required (and yes, even a *bit* of sitting up hurts, especially if required to do it repeatedly with a closed gas block).