Another no knock warrant goes bad

[Soundslikejosh]

Good plan. The cops should think all this out better when they are wide awake sitting in a well lit squad room full of all their buddies who are all going to be backing them up right or wrong against who ever they happen to be breaking in on in the middle of the night.

Mr Ryan,

I don't mind if you disagree with me, but I don't understand what you are trying to say. Can you try to explain your point in a different way? If you've got a suggestion, I'd like to hear it.

 

[Indecision]

I think there should be a clause on no-knock warrants that states if they do a miss-knock and hit the wrong house, the person inside is not legally responsible for the police lives he took. That would solve half the problem. Innocent death is not good, but if you do make it through it at least you can't be prosecuted.

 

[gunner4564]

I don't mind paying for things that benefit me and I don't think that means I am not free. I do mind having to wonder if the police are going to raid my house and possibly kill me or my loved one's simply because the guy next door is a retard and apparently so were the cops that couldn't get a freaking street address correct. I mean come on people dominos delivery guys seem to have perfected the ability to locate a correct house based on street address and as far as I know their operating budget must be at least a bit smaller than most police forces.


Please explain how anyone one of these things listed below would cause me or my family harm:

A military
Emergency medical services
Sidewalks
Police
Fire suppression and/or rescue services
Jails
Welfare
Education
Healthcare
Roads

 

[Denny347]

I do mind having to wonder if the police are going to raid my house and possibly kill me or my loved one's simply because the guy next door is a retard and apparently so were the cops that couldn't get a freaking street address correct.

What is the statistical probability of this happening? Is this something common enough to actually worry about? There are about 145,000 warrants served a year on average. I am more likely to be killed by a tornado, more likely to be killed in a auto accident, more likely to die in a household accident. But there is no reason to worry about that. Wrong "no-knock warrants" are exceedingly rare.

 

[Prometheus]

Nor the forced taxation for:

A military Should be paid for with import/export tariffs. Read the Constitution.
Emergency medical services Plenty of cities / counties have private EMS services that bill you directly. Thats the way it should be.
Sidewalks The city puts a gun to your head and says build a sidewalk mr property 'owner'. Total B.S.
Police See below
Fire suppression and/or rescue services See EMS above. This is a tricky issues for fire, see below.
Jails see below
Welfare wealth redistribution. Let private charities deal with it.
Education Indoctrination for kids? Privatize it all. Charities can put poor kids thru school.
Healthcare Wealth redistribution. Forcing me at gun point to pay for someone else. Total BS.
Roads Usage taxes. The fuel you put in your car is already taxed enough (60%) that it completely funds all roadways and then some (if politicans stopped raiding that fund). Only the ppl driving pay for using the roads. As it should be.

Ask yourself, how badly do you really want a "free" country?

Yes I do.

Police? Disband every police department. A small sales tax can pay for a modest sized sheriff's department. Legalize pot and we cut the need for jails by 60%. Problems (mostly) solved.

Fire protection... the trickiest question... a small sales tax for it could be acceptable. This is an entire post, hanging up on this is, in the grand scheme of things about the only argument the "big brother" government types can come up with. Like the Sheriffs dept, it's necessary.

 

[Glock Lover]

Yes I do.

Police? Disband every police department. A small sales tax can pay for a modest sized sheriff's department. Legalize pot and we cut the need for jails by 60%. Problems (mostly) solved.

Fire protection... the trickiest question... a small sales tax for it could be acceptable. This is an entire post, hanging up on this is, in the grand scheme of things about the only argument the "big brother" government types can come up with. Like the Sheriffs dept, it's necessary.

 

[HICKMAN]

Police? Disband every police department. A small sales tax can pay for a modest sized sheriff's department.

You know... this makes me wonder why we have SO many different kinds of Law Enforcement?

Just around here I see:

State Police
Sheriff's
IMPD
Southport PD
Homecroft PD
Greenwood PD
Johnson Co Sheriff
Beech Grove
Perry Township
Park Ranger
Liquor cops

Why do we have SOOO many different cops just in my area alone?

 

[DeadeyeChrista'sdad]

Quite simply, because everytime some odd thing happens where someone does something maybe they shouldn't, and aren't immediately slapped on the hands for it, or maybe a new and imminent danger presents itself, (such as a runaway Buffalo traipsing through town, putting small children, innocent nuns, and senior citizens in danger, say) a bunch of "bleeding hearts" jump up and scream "Something should be DONE about this!!" Then a politician catches wind of it and makes it the centerpiece of his campaign, screaming from a podium "Runaway buffalos are threatening our AMERICAN way of life, and SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT THIS, OR SMALL CHILDREN, INNOCENT NUNS, AND SENIOR CITIZENS WILL BE IN NEEDLESS DANGER!!!!" and then, just like the sheeple many of us are we actually ELECT the crooked SOB, and what does he do? He stands up in the legislature and yells "Runaway buffalos are threatening us with their evil buffalo ways and ideology, and Something must be DONE about this!! And if we create this new type of police dept. to deal with it, ALL of your districts will be given TONS of money to finance it!" Well, now, it would be downright irresponsible for any legislator to vote AGAINST such important law and order type legislation, not to mention the fact that if it passes they could stand up in their home districts and say "This new legislation creates the BUFFALO police, and they will deal with this terrible problem, and I voted for it, and now our district will be given TONS of money to deal with it!!!" He will conveniently forget to mention where said money comes from. Any more questions?
.And dad thougt that political science degree was a waste of time... sheesh...
.
.
.
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[Fargo]

Tongue firmly in cheek:

You know... this makes me wonder why we have SO many different kinds of Law Enforcement?

Just around here I see:

State Police :Those traffic tickets won't write themselves
Sheriff's : Those warrants won't serve themselves
IMPD :Arresting Marion Co's misguided children knowing they will be OR'd almost immediately
Southport PD: Providing part time hours for cops from other agencies
Homecroft PD: not familiar with
Greenwood PD : Keeping Marion Co. in Marion Co.
Johnson Co Sheriff : see Greenwood PD
Beech Grove: Trying to keep Marion Co in Marion Co despite being part of Marion Co.
Perry Township: not familiar with
Park Ranger: those weenie wackers won't lock themselves up
Liquor cops: Charter members of the "Women's Christian Temperance and Anti-fun league" unless its them having fun.

Why do we have SOOO many different cops just in my area alone?

 

[wally05]

I would say err on the side of losing evidence and keeping people innocent until proven guilty, esp. in the case of drug violations. Anyone who can get rid of all the evidence against them in the 30 seconds between an officer identifying himself at the door and busting in didn't do something heinous enough to risk many lives in a no-knock warrant. What's more important to you: preservation of evidence or preservation of life?

I have to say that I agree with this. While doing reserve work, I saw some bad decisions made and some dishonest dealings. Of course, I raised my concerns and left the department. The thing is, the job of a police officer is an extremely powerful one. You can screw up someone's life in a heartbeat. I understand the reasoning for no knock warrants, the problem is, when they are done (from the few I've seen), they probably could have been done at another time or served the guy when he was away from his house (local hangouts, etc.).

I ask the officers here this: "What if you break down the door and someone is in the front room wearing a gun?" Maybe I'm even cleaning the gun. It ends up being the wrong house, the owner gets scared and draws and he is killed... what then? It was just interesting to me that some officers didn't seem concerned if it was the wrong house or not, they just wanted to get the "bad guy."

PS: I'm not knocking LEOs, like I said, I have many friends that are officers and good ones at that. I'm just commenting on some of the recklessness by the local departments.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Mr Ryan,

I don't mind if you disagree with me, but I don't understand what you are trying to say. Can you try to explain your point in a different way? If you've got a suggestion, I'd like to hear it.

I'm pointing out that it is law enforcement with all the advantages here. They choose the time and place of the action. They have advance knowledge of what action they plan to take. They practice these actions as a team and do reconisence, they know the backround and numbers of their targets or at least think they do. They deliberately ensure they have an over whelming force out numbering their targets by multiples of ten or more as well as the best wearpons and surveillence system my money can buy for them. They sit in a well lit squad room with their team and discuss all their options.

If any one has the option to make sure they know WTF they are doing and who they are doing it to it is the police. It's ridiculous to throw that back in the face of someone woken from bed in the middle of any one night out of the 30,000 nights of their life and expect THEM to be the reasonable, cautious, and responsible for the highest level of identifying targets and attackers screaming at them and blinding them with lights.

They are the ones on the offensive in a citizen of this country's own home, it is THEIR responsibility to convince the home owner they are not armed thugs LIEING as well at to make sure they are at the right location. If they make a mistake it is due to their own mistake, not the home owner and the results of that mistake might be their life but more likely a law abiding homeowner's life and it is the police who are responsible for that action and result.

 

[Jack Ryan]

You know... this makes me wonder why we have SO many different kinds of Law Enforcement?

Just around here I see:

State Police
Sheriff's
IMPD
Southport PD
Homecroft PD
Greenwood PD
Johnson Co Sheriff
Beech Grove
Perry Township
Park Ranger
Liquor cops

Why do we have SOOO many different cops just in my area alone?

People make money from enforcing the law. People gain the power to bend other people to their own will through law enforcement. The exact same things that motivate crime.

Once people learn you will pay for something it can nearly never be eliminated any other way but revolution.

This country survived nearly a hundred years before the first paid full time police force emerged.

 

[thompal]

Also, another issue. If it is a "mis-knock", then what? I hear a crash of my door in the middle of the night, I am NOT going to go look for trouble, gun in hand. I am staying put, call 911 and defend myself if necessary. I would be clearly identifying myself as an armed person. If its a criminal, have my TV, it costs FAR less than my life. When I step outside my bedroom door, my chances of success in that situation drop DRAMATICALLY. If its the cops, why compund the chances of being shot by walking out with a gun, blazing away without IDing the potential target? ID myself as an armed individual behind a closed door, I think they will ID themselves as Police, to which I would try to talk through the door. Saves me a hole in my head.

Plus, I dont really see LEOs as the shoot at everything that moves for a warrant. Touchy? Maybe. But not an erradication squad mentality.

My major issue with what you said is what you don't take into consideration. A lot of us here have families. If you are awakened by intruders in the middle of the night, you cannot just hide behind your bed and let them have what they want, because you have family members in other rooms, and while you hide behind your bed, those other family members might be being beaten/raped/kidnapped/whatever.

Given that I am the primary defense of my family at that point, I would have to say that anyone who does not belong in my house at 3am will be considered a target. If they have a warrant, they are welcome to knock on my door at 7pm, show me the warrant, and request entrance.

 

[thompal]

Also, if I did have kids, they would not be in a house set up where I would have to go clear across the place to get to them. If they can't be across the hall or similar, then I am not going to move into that house.

As for criminals IDing themselves as police, I revert to Plan A. Yell through the door. They will not have the patience police will have and will break in or just take what they will and leave.

Things such as your son or daughter, perhaps?

 

[thompal]

In the end, yea, cops could always wait the person out. I think that almost anyone would either eventually come out and give up, commit suicide by cop, or kill themselves. The question is: Do we allow the surprise of a no-knock, or do we risk having to do all the above, disrupting neighborhoods, other people, costing municipalities money, etc..

And you don't think that a full military assault, with flashbangs, guys in black carrying submachineguns, and gunfire doesn't disrupt neighborhoods? Also, consider the costs of paying however many LEOs it takes to pull off an operation like that, combined with potential multi-million dollar lawsuits, officer injuries/deaths, danger to nearby residents, etc.

I would say that the possibility that a drug dealer might evade conviction is a small price to pay to eliminate military assaults on people SUSPECTED of illegal activity.

It could be different if police have evidence that a violent crime was IN PROGRESS, such as a rape, or kidnapping or such, but for crimes against the state, I'd say the whole thing just stinks and should be abolished.

 

[thompal]

What is the statistical probability of this happening? Is this something common enough to actually worry about?

Lightening strikes are relatively uncommon, but I don't stand under a tree during a thunderstorm.

There are about 145,000 warrants served a year on average.

145,000 NO-KNOCK DYNAMIC ENTRIES PER YEAR, and you don't see that as a problem? If only 1% are "mis-knocks," that's 1500 assaults on unsuspecting citizens' houses - EVERY YEAR!

I am more likely to be killed by a tornado, more likely to be killed in a auto accident, more likely to die in a household accident. But there is no reason to worry about that. Wrong "no-knock warrants" are exceedingly rare.

You don't even consider the possibility of a car wreck, or have plans for when a tornado is nearby? Do you tell your kids to go play outside when the funnel clouds are visible, dart into the road without looking, or run with scissors?

The odds that something bad may happen may very well be small, but you are negligent if you don't do everything in your power to reduce them further. If people dressed in black break down your front door, point guns at you and your children, tell you to shut up and lay on the floor, and start jerking your kids around, you expect me to believe that your only response will be to say "Oh, OK."?

 

[thompal]

You know... this makes me wonder why we have SO many different kinds of Law Enforcement?

Just around here I see:

State Police
Sheriff's
IMPD
Southport PD
Homecroft PD
Greenwood PD
Johnson Co Sheriff
Beech Grove
Perry Township
Park Ranger
Liquor cops

Why do we have SOOO many different cops just in my area alone?

You can't leave out FBI, BATF, IRS, State Excise, etc. Each additionally with their own paramilitary SWAT (or HRT) team.

 

[Indy317]

Please explain how anyone one of these things listed below would cause me or my family harm:

A military
Emergency medical services
Sidewalks
Police
Fire suppression and/or rescue services
Jails
Welfare
Education
Healthcare
Roads

The issues was the concept of a "free country" and no-knock warrants. The fact is, you can't have a "free" country if even one person is forced, with threat of imprisonment, to pay for any of the above.

If you want to discuss the harming of no-knocks vs the above, so be it. I will agree that none of the above, for the most part, will harm you. You might have some EMT mess up, or some doctor. The military could easily be used against you, it has happened in other countries.

 

[Indy317]

And you don't think that a full military assault, with flashbangs, guys in black carrying submachineguns, and gunfire doesn't disrupt neighborhoods? Also, consider the costs of paying however many LEOs it takes to pull off an operation like that, combined with potential multi-million dollar lawsuits, officer injuries/deaths, danger to nearby residents, etc.

I never said those things won't disrupt a neighborhood. The question is: What would happen if we had no no-knock warrants? Would things be better, worse, or the same? In the money aspect, things would be worse. You have all the same equipment and people, but now you have to _wait_, and as those hours add up, so do over-time costs (unless you have enough reserves that can work for free). Granted you can say that would be a wash as we wouldn't deal with the "multi-million dollar lawsuits," but please post facts to back up that claim. All one has to do is look at recent police lawsuits, they are far from "multi-million." Lawyers want to be paid, and if they believe they are given a fair offer and their clients don't take it, eventually the lawyer is going to tell the client to hire another lawyer. It would be a nice study to see the difference, but I doubt we will ever get that opportunity.

I would say that the possibility that a drug dealer might evade conviction is a small price to pay to eliminate military assaults on people SUSPECTED of illegal activity.

What if that drug dealer is the one pushing your kids to do drugs? What if that drug dealer is the one who is believed to send out his dealers to pull drive-bys, one of those drive-bys including a stray bullet that came through your window? Far fetched, yes, but so is worrying about being an innocent victim of a wrongful police raid. They are both rare things, but do we change the entire system because of a few bad rare things?

It could be different if police have evidence that a violent crime was IN PROGRESS, such as a rape, or kidnapping or such, but for crimes against the state, I'd say the whole thing just stinks and should be abolished.

I was actually going to ask you about this. I understand what you are saying here. However, if the cops can't get the benefit of no-knocks for so drug investigations, don't complain if we see a spike in drug related crime because the cops have a harder time getting convictions, serving warrants, etc.

Lightening strikes are relatively uncommon, but I don't stand under a tree during a thunderstorm.

You don't even consider the possibility of a car wreck, or have plans for when a tornado is nearby? Do you tell your kids to go play outside when the funnel clouds are visible, dart into the road without looking, or run with scissors?

So since those rare things are such an issue, what do you tell your friends and family to do? Does someone keep watch 24/7 to see if the SWAT van rolls up? Have your kids been told that if people are trying to break in the door, it is likely the cops serving a warrant the wrong house more so than some criminal trying to break-in? Have you fortified your home against no-knock dynamic entry, or did you do that so criminals wouldn't break in? What is the code word and family plan you have established when the inevitable wrong no-knock dynamic entry comes to your front door? How often have you practiced what you would do when the cops are wrongly kicking in your door by surprise?

 

[thompal]

I never said those things won't disrupt a neighborhood. The question is: What would happen if we had no no-knock warrants? Would things be better, worse, or the same? In the money aspect, things would be worse. You have all the same equipment and people, but now you have to _wait_, and as those hours add up, so do over-time costs (unless you have enough reserves that can work for free). Granted you can say that would be a wash as we wouldn't deal with the "multi-million dollar lawsuits," but please post facts to back up that claim. All one has to do is look at recent police lawsuits, they are far from "multi-million." Lawyers want to be paid, and if they believe they are given a fair offer and their clients don't take it, eventually the lawyer is going to tell the client to hire another lawyer. It would be a nice study to see the difference, but I doubt we will ever get that opportunity.

You assume that "waiting" means that you would need an entire 40 person assault, command/control/communications/air support team. What's wrong with a couple of cops in front and back?

What if that drug dealer is the one pushing your kids to do drugs? What if that drug dealer is the one who is believed to send out his dealers to pull drive-bys, one of those drive-bys including a stray bullet that came through your window? Far fetched, yes, but so is worrying about being an innocent victim of a wrongful police raid. They are both rare things, but do we change the entire system because of a few bad rare things?

If I have done my job as a parent, then someone telling my kids to buy drugs will have the same affect as the lyrics of a song, or the message of a political commercial. As for "drive-bys:" Do drugs cause drive-bys? I dunno. If so, does alcohol cause domestic violence? I would guess there are more domestic violence incidents per year than drive-bys (by a wide margin), but I've never seen "ban alcohol" proposed as a solution.

I was actually going to ask you about this. I understand what you are saying here. However, if the cops can't get the benefit of no-knocks for so drug investigations, don't complain if we see a spike in drug related crime because the cops have a harder time getting convictions, serving warrants, etc.

"Drug related" does NOT equal "drug crime." A "drug crime" would be buying or ingesting drugs. Robbing a store is robbing a store, no matter the motivation. Is robbing a store more acceptable if the motivation of the robber is to pay his rent? Should we provide free rent and food to people to remove their motivation to commit crimes?

Have your kids been told that if people are trying to break in the door, it is likely the cops serving a warrant the wrong house more so than some criminal trying to break-in? Have you fortified your home against no-knock dynamic entry, or did you do that so criminals wouldn't break in? What is the code word and family plan you have established when the inevitable wrong no-knock dynamic entry comes to your front door? How often have you practiced what you would do when the cops are wrongly kicking in your door by surprise?

No, actually, everyone has been told that anyone breaking down the door, or crashing through a window is fair game, and to do whatever is necessary to stop the entry or, failing that, escape, to meet in an already agreed upon spot.
Anyone gaining unlawful entry is, by definition, a criminal, and will be afforded the appropriate respect and response.