American beliefs

[GIJEW]

Christianity has ideas and morals that come from God and not man. Therefore these morals like the right to life cant be undone or interfered with. This is a very very good thing for society regardless of if you believe in a god or not. If society doesnt have a constitution like ours, and man is the rule of law, then men can make any law or moral and deem it "right." Like gay marriage, like sharia law, like abortion, etc. Even murder can be made ok if its totally up to the population to vote yes or no. Without a set of rules that cant be changed, society crumbles, because any law or moral can be undone at any time, especially the right to life. Just look at taxes for example. The narrative now is to just take(STEAL) from rich people because they have it, and give it to poor people because they dont. They use lies to push the agenda and the ends justify their means. This is nothing more than theft from someone who has more. It is now ok in our society because we have become so secular and so immoral, or amoral, that politicians are just making "laws" and not following other laws. Nothing matters anymore because there is no standard. Religion can also be used for the opposite, as we see is Islam. The religion is used to make laws that benefit men and enslave women and non believers. This nation grew to the greatest nation in such a short period of time, we must look at why. The majority has been christian, we are set up to be free, we have a constitution that makes the people have the power with a few rules like free speech, guns, etc, that cant be abridged no matter what law is passed. The constitution is the greatest governing document to ever be written, and it made sure that religion could not be controlled by gov't. The only problem is that our gov't isnt following it anymore at all.

^^^this!^^^

 

[deal me in]

Ha! Science produced the incorrect conclusions to begin with, it is only now beginning to return to the universal moral that all men are created equal.

Tribalism produced the incorrect conclusions to begin with, science tried to confirm those conclusions, and eventually found the truth. There are some other belief systems that don't deal with being wrong nearly so well as science...

 

[deal me in]

The people did change or they wouldn't have allowed or needed rulers to seize more power. That's exactly what the Revolution entailed.

And arguing merits is fine in that other thread but would steer this one more off-topic.

I think you have the causation backwards. The cultural/societal changes are the result of big government, not the cause.

 

[singlemalt]

The people did change or they wouldn't have allowed or needed rulers to seize more power. That's exactly what the Revolution entailed.

Instead of asking what "new" constitution might be viable today shouldn't we be asking how to return to the moral compass that predominated at the founding of this country? The constitution worked pretty well and mostly unchanged until the early/mid 20th century. I also believe that part of the problem today is the growth of the bureaucratic state. Congress passes a law and then leaves all of the details to an unelected department to sort out the details. Then mission creep sets in and we have the mess we find ourselves in today. We hold ignorance of the law is no excuse but with all of the regulations that have the force of law, who among us could possibly know all of them? When there were only 10 of them it was pretty easy to say you should know them all. Exactly how many are there today? Does anyone even know just the number of laws and regulations let alone what they all are?

 

[Lowe0]

So you disagree with the founders, what they believed and staked this nation's system of governance upon. Most modern Americans seem to.

Correct. The Founding Fathers had a lot of good ideas, but morality being dependent on religion wasn't one of them.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Christianity isn't necessary for a moral people and it may well be detrimental. Cultural norms rejecting murder and theft predate Christianity and are common in secular countries. Everyone always focuses on whether Hitler was a Christian or not. That's the wrong focus. The fact is that Germany was chock full of Christians who willingly supported the holocaust or, at the very least, looked the other way.

Two thoughts come to mind. First, while Christianity as such can't claim the patent on rejecting murder, it can be attributed to the God of Christianity through His treatment of the third person in history murdering the fourth.

As for the Germans, the Nazi government went to great lengths to provide the illusion of proper treatment of the Jews being taken to the camps. They would be taken at lest to the German border on regular passenger cars and then transferred to the squalid box cars/stock cars that would take them the rest of the way through Poland to the camps. It is important to make the German on the street feel that nothing was being done like that which was in fact the truth. I did not realize this until it was explained to me by a Jew who escaped from Germany. There is no question that the regime had an ax to grind with Jews and that the people were being very naive, perhaps willfully so, but at the same time had the requisite level of humanity within them for the regime to consider it important to convince them that there was no inhumane treatment, just relocating them where they could be happy and so could everyone else.

 

[Cerberus]

Tribalism produced the incorrect conclusions to begin with, science tried to confirm those conclusions, and eventually found the truth. There are some other belief systems that don't deal with being wrong nearly so well as science...

Coming from a family of scientists, several to be exact, I will assert this to be backwards. Scientists from many eras have put forth many incorrect "truths". And many incorrect "truths" are revealed every day. And every scientist in my family agrees with this, even though some have never met each other.

Darwin in his autobiography considered himself a deist and agnostic. Even the father of evolution threw off total disbelief in a higher power.

Einstein even used the term agnostic, amongst others and rejected atheism as it's rightfully defined. But then again he often spoke like a man with his wires crossed as pure genius are often are capable off.

Let's face it, science and religion can and have coexisted for millennia, and even answer completely total aspects of our lives. Neither can prove or disprove the other and for either to try to do so is folly.

 

[Cerberus]

I think you have the causation backwards. The cultural/societal changes are the result of big government, not the cause.

And again you are getting it backwards. Man is the cause of his blunders. Man and government are one in the same.

 

[D-Ric902]

Correct. The Founding Fathers had a lot of good ideas, but morality being dependent on religion wasn't one of them.

Generally speaking it requires effort to do what is good or right. There is some sacrifice of self involved. Man's natural inclination would be to not do it.

Religion is the habit or permanent disposition to do good and right things for others. Be that a family, community, or nation.
the founders didn't all attend the same church, but knew the importance of it.

 

[Lowe0]

Generally speaking it requires effort to do what is good or right. There is some sacrifice of self involved. Man's natural inclination would be to not do it.

And are atheists and agnostics not capable of that?

Religion is the habit or permanent disposition to do good and right things for others.

What? No, let me provide the definition of religion, per Oxford: "The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods".

 

[D-Ric902]

And are atheists and agnostics not capable of that?

What? No, let me provide the definition of religion, per Oxford: "The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods".

Did you miss the "generally speaking"
Of course an atheist or agnostic can do good things. Man is not a robot and can overcome his own inclinations.

Let me define "religious"
per oxford
(of a person) believing strongly in a particular religion and obeying its laws and practicessynonym devout

 

[MisterChester]

Did you miss the "generally speaking"
Of course an atheist or agnostic can do good things. Man is not a robot and can overcome his own inclinations.

Let me define "religious"
per oxford
(of a person)believing strongly in a particular religion and obeying its laws and practicessynonym devout

Laws and practices =/= good. As in just because a law or practice exists doesn't make it inherently good.

 

[MisterChester]

Generally speaking it requires effort to do what is good or right. There is some sacrifice of self involved. Man's natural inclination would be to not do it.

Religion is the habit or permanent disposition to do good and right things for others. Be that a family, community, or nation.
the founders didn't all attend the same church, but knew the importance of it.

That's false. Not every single religion has the habit to do good. Even if your statement was correct then what if someone starts The Church of Nicholas Cage whose doctrine dictates it's followers steal property or hurt innocent people?

 

[DoggyDaddy]

And are atheists and agnostics not capable of that?

What? No, let me provide the definition of religion, per Oxford: "The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods".

This evening I passed a sign for a church (in a strip mall) that said, "Crossfire Church No Religion". Whaddaya reckon that place is like? (per Oxford's definition that is)

 

[D-Ric902]

“There is no such thing as human wisdom; all is the providence of God”

John Adams quotes (American 2nd US President (1797-1801), 1735-1826)

“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

Quotes from the Founding Fathers, on the Importance of a Moral Society!

you can argue with the founders if you wish there
I won't try to out speak them

 

[warthog]

I will live in neither society.
I'll move to an island before that.

Can I live on your island too? You will need some help holding the forces of tyranny off so they don't just smite you.
I am serious here, I have long thought that wold be a great thing but I'd need some help to make it work.

 

[Lowe0]

“There is no such thing as human wisdom; all is the providence of God”

John Adams quotes (American 2nd US President (1797-1801), 1735-1826)

“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

Quotes from the Founding Fathers, on the Importance of a Moral Society!

you can argue with the founders if you wish there
I won't try to out speak them

At some point, "but the Founding Fathers said..." is just the appeal to authority fallacy.

 

[Cerberus]

At some point, "but the Founding Fathers said..." is just the appeal to authority fallacy.

No different than quoting Darwin or Einstein. I'd rather quote the founders, they were a much better group than most theoretical scientists combined.

 

[Lowe0]

No different than quoting Darwin or Einstein. I'd rather quote the founders, they were a much better group than most theoretical scientists combined.

Better at putting together a functioning system of checks and balances, sure. But like Darwin or Einstein, let's not assume that above-average competence in one area means they're automatically right about everything else.

 

[D-Ric902]

[h=3]noun (plural authorities)[/h]1The power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience:
Definition of fallacy in English:



[h=3]noun (plural fallacies)[/h]1A mistaken belief, especially one based on unsoundargument:




Constitutional authority is unsound.
thats interesting.
libertarian?
anarchist?