AK Raffle Disposition 7/20/2009

[VUPDblue]

Some time ago member "longrange" started a thread about an AK-74 being raffled by the Moose Lodge in Knox, Indiana with proceeds to benefit a family in need. Tickets were to be sold for $25 each. Several INGO members bought raffle tickets, but never received any actual tickets in the mail as they were promised. The date for the raffle came and went, with no word from longrange as to the disposition of the drawing. Eventually longrange posted that members of the Michigan Gun Owners (MGO) forum won the AK and a cash prize. Inquiries on that site turned up nothing, that's to say that nobody there knew of any raffle, or any local winners. At this point I decided to step-in and start looking harder into this. I contacted the Moose Lodge in Knox, and was told that they knew nothing about the raffle. I contacted people on MGO and was again told that they were not aware of any raffle. Longrange posted the name of the winner of the AK, and a search for him turned up nothing. Eventually I became convinced that no raffle had ever taken place and INGO was used as conveyance of this scam. It turns out that I was correct. The next few posts outline the email dialogue between longrange and myself.

 

[VUPDblue]

First email from "longrange" to me:

.

the winner ended up being a chuck howard i believe. acouple of guys off michigan
gunowners ended up winning cash prizes. i believe they sold 200 tickets total.
and i got with most people and told them the reason they didnt recieve their
tickets was the cost to mail them. its my fault at the beginning cause i
assumed they were going to mail them. but didnt think it was a big deal because
i gave all the info name numbers and such to put on the tickets that were being
drawn. and for every ticket that i sold online ended up costing me money
becuase of the paypal charges but didnt bug me i just wanted to try to extend it
out to people online. the guy that contacted you i didnt have much to say to
him because he attacked my character rightaway before even asking what was going
on. i should of talked to him and explained but was a little mad.

 

[VUPDblue]

His answers to some of my questions:

Specifically:

What person or business was in charge of administering this raffle? Did the
drawing take place in Indiana or Michigan? Did it require any special permits?
If so, did you have these permits? i didnt really have any part of the raffle.
my dad was actually helping sell tickets for them. so when i got money for a
ticket i gave to him he filled out the tickets and turned in. as far as who ran
it alot of moose members got it around. from what im told.
The raffle took place in the knox park. i thought originally it was the moose
operating however, wasnt it was just members of. because of permits.

What relationship do you have with this person/businiess?

Where did the proceeds from this raffle go? Do you have contact information
where these people can be reached?

What day did the drawing take place? Where was the drawing held? Is there a
phone number for this place? Is there someone there that can verify that a
drawing took place?

Who won the AK-47? Who won cash prizes? Do you have contact information for
these people?

How was the raffle conducted? How were the winners chosen? How many people were
witness to the drawing? Were any INGOers present? If so, what are their screen
names?

How was the AK-47 transferred to the winner? Did it involve an FFL?

.

 

[VUPDblue]

below i answered questions to the best of my knowledge now. am i guilty of not
following the thread yes. but i had a very lot going on myself in my personal
life that im dealing with and still am. did i run this raffle no i just simply
thought if someone wanted on it would be easy for me to just pass the money on
and get your name in. orinally i thought they would just mail you the other
half of ticket however they didnt cuase of cost. i shouldnt of assumed they were
sending. and we only sold around 200 to 300 dollars worth online. if i was a
scammer i think i would have tryed to make more than that. once again i am
sorry for the lack of communication on this thread. and thats all id be guilty
on.

Specifically:

What person or business was in charge of administering this raffle? Did the
drawing take place in Indiana or Michigan? Did it require any special permits?
If so, did you have these permits? i originally thought it was the moose in
knox. however it was family and friends some of which was members of moose but
couldnt do it their because of the liabilities.

What relationship do you have with this person/businiess? the only connection i
had with the raffle was helping my dad sell his tickets and i donated the gun
because their story hit me and my wife.

Where did the proceeds from this raffle go? Do you have contact information
where these people can be reached? i know all the proceeds went to the parrish
family they have a very sick kid and no insurance. i dont personally know
these people but might be able to get a contact to them. dont really want to
bother them with it but i guess i could if you wanted.

What day did the drawing take place? Where was the drawing held? Is there a
phone number for this place? Is there someone there that can verify that a
drawing took place? the drawing took place on june 27 at the knox park under 1
of the little buildings there.

Who won the AK-47? Who won cash prizes? Do you have contact information for
these people? a chuck howard won the gun. i dont recall all names of winners
for i was mingling and didnt really think i would need to know. however i will
try to get a number to the winner.

How was the raffle conducted? How were the winners chosen? How many people were
witness to the drawing? Were any INGOers present? If so, what are their screen
names? the raffle had around 10 cans full of tickets for that certain item they
were sold for. and drawn out 1 at a time and announced.

How was the AK-47 transferred to the winner? Did it involve an FFL? the gun was
originally mine. i bought from another person awhile back and donated to the
raffle. i didnt worry about a transfer because its not in my name. their was
many other items that were also donated with ticket sales. and the raffle was
put together by friends and family not organization so it didnt involve FFL.

 

[VUPDblue]

i was hoping to be able to get the left over tickets from the drawing showing
the ingo members name on tickets however they were all thrown away. being hard
for me to prove they were in the drawing. i feel bad that people are concerned
with not being in the drawing so i would be willing to refund their money being
i did miss speak the drawing and the ticket stubs werent sent out to members. i
thought about it and i guess it would be my fault for not having all facts
first. just let me know what they want thanks.

.

 

[VUPDblue]

sorry my internet is messing up and didnt know if the last 1 went through on a
follow up the the refund. once again sorry for the confusion and my
assuming of facts. i learned a grave lesson not to assume to have the facts
first. and feel i should pay the money back just because of me not following
what i started and not having the right facts. im sure we all want this done.
just let me know what way to go thanks. or give me your number and we can talk
thanks

.

 

[VUPDblue]

From me:

Ok, here's my problem and please
> hear me out with an open mind. My bull**** meter
> is pegged here. I don't think there ever was
> a raffle and I think you fleeced members of INGO
> by falsely selling raffle tickets. It seems to me
> that if you felt so bad about not being up-front and you
> were willing to refund tickets purchased, you would have
> said this from the beginning. Also, nobody from the
> Michigan Gun Owners site has any idea about this
> raffle, yet you said that multiple people from there won
> prizes. Next, I have spoken with multiple people from
> the Moose lodge and none of them are familiar with any such
> raffle. If there was a raffle, and you are
> being honest, then I sincerely apologize, but the way things
> are playing out, it stinks to high heaven. I
> just don't buy it. I will be calling on a friend of mine
> with the Indiana State Police for assistance in figuring
> this out. I want you to know that up front.
> I'm not messing around here, or playing internet
> detective. I, and INGO, take this very
> seriously. If you want to be the bigger person
> and tell me that you did, in fact, sell tickets for
> something that did not ever exist, and that you want to
> refund the tickets sold, then we can call it quits, people
> get their refunds, and I quit looking into this. This
> is your one and only chance to come clean and "get
> out of jail free" if you did mastermind this. If
> you don't want to go that route, I'll keep this up
> and involve the proper authorities until it can be
> determined if there was an actual charity
> raffle. I still want answers to the list of
> questions I sent you. Answers to all those
> questions will be satisfactory in closing this
> case. Please understand that this is not
> a witch-hunt. I just want the facts.
>
>
>
> Call me if you like.

 

[VUPDblue]

ok i would like to refund the money. the problem
was that their was going to be a drawing and it fell through. and your right i
feel bad and should of just been up front when it did. but i didnt start this
off as a scam. it just fell through and i should of just ended it and put money
back. but my wife lost her job. i lost mine. we were going through times with
each other. i got a dui and was dealing with that and thats why it went this
far. i had so much stress on me i just didnt know where to go on anything. i
am very sorry and am a good person just had alot of things hit me at once. and
i would like if we can keep this kinda out of all the public cause i just dont
want them to know my personal life of things. i hope you can kinda understand.

.

 

[VUPDblue]

Conclusion:

Though he requested that I keep this private, I chose not to honor that request. My reasons for this were many, but it boiled down to the fact that I hold my responsibility to the membership of this site higher than I hold my responsibility to a liar and a cheat. The members of INGO, showing their true colors, participated in a fund-raiser for a family who had fallen on hard times, or so they were told. These good-hearted members were taken advantage of by member "longrange" and their hard-earned money was stolen. The money would never have been returned if the thief hadn't been leaned-on hard by yours truely. I have no loyalty to him and I did what I had to do to get the money returned. For this I have no regrets. I received all the stolen funds from "longrange" as a Money Order via USPS mail. I have been in communication with all of the victims throughout this process and have kept them informed all along the way. At some point it was suggested that the returned funds be used for a charity purpose similar to how they were originally intended to be used. Each of the victims agreed to this and it was agreed that the recovered funds were to be donated to a very worthy cause. In true selfless fashion, and in what can only be described as a true display of generosity, the funds will be donated to a very worthy cause, as was originally intended. I will not list all the victims, but they know who they are. Their actions are what make this site great.

I want to make it clear to anyone and everyone using this site that the staff will not tolerate any kind of criminal activity or deception. From this point forward, any of this kind of activity will be immediately turned-over to the proper authorities. We will not disallow future fund raisers or raffles, but from this point forward any of these will have to be approved by the Staff/Admin before they will be allowed to be posted here. This is to ensure that this kind of thing will not happen again, yet keep such activities available to those who depend on them.

This thread will be stickied alongside the original thread for a few days so that everyone may view it. After that, it will be locked and allowed to retire into the archives.

Happy reading and, as always,

 

[VUPDblue]

I certainly hope that this kind of thing never happens again.

 

[jblomenberg16]

Very good post. Thanks for documenting, and for your help in resolving. Your committment to our membership here is to be admired, and I think epitomizes what great people we have on this site.

 

[40calPUNISHER]

This all started with oldfb coming to me with worries about how some conversations that he and longrange had that left a nasty taste in his mouth. I want to thank oldfb for coming to me and getting this thing started. Thanks to VUPD for communicating with the banned longrange to take all the facts that many of the members and I had put together as we dug deeper to eventually call his BS.

 

[40calPUNISHER]

I like how my thread over at MGO's has been deleted. Probably due to the fact that it made them look like a butch of a-holes. I asked the admin where it went and am waiting to hear back.

 

[hipower]

I like how my thread over at MGO's has been deleted. Probably due to the fact that it made them look like a butch of a-holes. I asked the admin where it went and am waiting to hear back.

There is no shortage of a-holes on MGO and of course there are many nice folks too. You are probably correct bout why your thread was deleted.

I was ashamed of some of the responses that you got when you came to the MGO site to ask a simple honest question. We are not all like that but I am not sure that I will be renewing my membership there when time comes.

Anyway, nice site you guys have here.

 

[jblomenberg16]

There is no shortage of a-holes on MGO and of course there are many nice folks too. You are probably correct bout why your thread was deleted.

I was ashamed of some of the responses that you got when you came to the MGO site to ask a simple honest question. We are not all like that but I am not sure that I will be renewing my membership when time comes.

Anyway, nice site you guys have here.

Welcome aboard...look forward to seeing you around.


40Cal...thanks for your work in helping out with this one too!

 

[40calPUNISHER]

There is no shortage of a-holes on MGO and of course there are many nice folks too. You are probably correct bout why your thread was deleted.

I was ashamed of some of the responses that you got when you came to the MGO site to ask a simple honest question. We are not all like that but I am not sure that I will be renewing my membership there when time comes.

Anyway, nice site you guys have here.

I talked to an admin and they said that since they moved the thread to the "ammo dump" it gets deleted after 7 days (of no activity I assume).
I know that those few don't speak for everyone. I did have a couple MGO's try to help out as much as they could and apologzed for the others comments. Thanks for joining INGO and I hope you stick around.

 

[hipower]

I talked to an admin and they said that since they moved the thread to the "ammo dump" it gets deleted after 7 days (of no activity I assume).
I know that those few don't speak for everyone. I did have a couple MGO's try to help out as much as they could and apologzed for the others comments. Thanks for joining INGO and I hope you stick around.

Thanks, I'll definitely poke around and see what you southerners are up to

I tried replying to your PM but don't think I have enough privilege to use PM yet.

 

[techres]

Thanks, I'll definitely poke around and see what you southerners are up to

I tried replying to your PM but don't think I have enough privilege to use PM yet.

Hey, welcome! I hope we don't have bad blood or forum wars between the two boards. Admittedly, it must have been weird to have members of another board coming on to yours to ask about potential fraud from someone who was not even one of your members.

He was our member and he slandered y'all in order to defraud us. We appreciate your help and apologize for our one guy and his actions that sadly drew you MGO guys into the situation.

Glad to see you guys have a very active shooting community up there. We can use all the patriots and friends of liberty we can get.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I wasn't one of the victims, but I'd like to say thank you to VUPDblue for watching out for the members and pursuing this. And also add a big +1 to all the people that were scammed for donating the money to charity. VUPD could you give them rep for me since your not releasing their names?

 

[Timjoebillybob]

There is no shortage of a-holes on MGO and of course there are many nice folks too.

Welcome to INGO and don't worry there are a few a-holes here also, I can be one myself. But the majority here are pretty decent people and I'm sure the same can be said for MGO.