Active shooter at Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas...

[ArcadiaGP]

Saw one on armlist today, asking price of $800

Better to just buy another rifle, shoot akimbo.

 

[jamil]

Just speaking on the matter of the public eye, and how this all looks. We don't have an argument to make because this looks too bad for us. If it were an accessory that was far less meaningful, obviously we'd be able to speak out about it using facts.

But since it's this specific accessory that undoubtedly helped him achieve even .1% more damage... there's nothing that we, the gun community, are going to be able to say or do to prevent the likely inevitable regulation of it. Because this accessory is specifically created to "break the law", so to speak... it's nigh indefensible.

This will look bad for us, even having given a reasonable argument that it won't help, in cities like Los Angeles. San Francisco. Portland. Denver. Chicago. New York. Boston. You get the idea. It will always look bad in those places because those people just want guns banned. They're all in the left tribe. But in the middle people can see through the bull****. If I can talk to some sane progressives at work, and explain exactly what bumpfire is, how it works, and what gun owners typically buy it for, and they get it, then that's something.

The lunatic ideologues can't see anything but banning guns as a solution. Maybe they'll settle for this turd. It's really not a huge loss to most gun owners if they do, other than that it's a loss. I'd rather not offer this turd because it gives the idea that we agree that passing laws to ban stuff actually works.

 

[JollyMon]

I got a fostech bumpski for sale if anyone wants it.... 800 dollars

 

[BugI02]

I agree with your reasoning jamil, but the best response I've heard articulated is to just say no and tell them to run their 2018 campaigns on gun control if they don't like it

 

[actaeon277]

Most accessories aren't specifically meant to get around existing laws. The bumpfire system is unique.

Like bullet buttons and California compliant stocks?

Doesn't matter. NO MORE

 

[JAL]

Not nearly as many as you. M4, M14, UMP45, MP5. While the M4 was not bad but it eats through mags is seconds. I had my 15yr old shooting an M4 and he did well with short 3-4rd bursts. But that was 7yrds or so. M14...useless in FA. UMP was downright nice in FA, same with MP5. Not hard to keep tight groups in FA. I just finished reading "The Operator" by SEAL Team 6 member Robert Oneill. He was in a battle with the Taliban for 6 hours. In that time, he only used a mag and a half of ammo...45 rounds. For rifle work, aimed fire will always be King, FA has a very limited usefulness, even on our SWAT Team. The high demand for FA is only because we can't have it (most of us cannot afford it). I don't really care if all law abiding gun owners have a FA, but the attraction is related to the scarcity.

Having used a M14A1, M16A1, M60 and M2 while wearing a green suit (among some much bigger stuff), I disagree regarding the M14A1 in FA. It takes some training and experience to control. Requires using 3-round bursts and having the fore grip helps considerably. Using it with a bipod from a prepared firing position provides better control. I've fired it standing in FA. When doing so aim low and let it rise. Never fired a BAR but was told by those who did that it was similar. The M60 can be hip fired reasonably well for somewhat scattered suppressing fire if you know how to hold it. It's a supporting fire medium MG best used shoulder fired or with a bipod which increases its accuracy. Can also be used on tripod for site defense but never liked fixing it in position in that manner; harder to move it quickly if needed compared to bipod.

The M16A1 is much easier to control and can be used in "spray-n-pray" which is what happened with it in the Jungle Paradise. In US Army stats I read while on active duty it resulted in a massive increase in the estimated number of rounds fired per enemy casualty (WIA+KIA) from 20,000 in WWII to 200,000 in the Vietnam War. It resulted in the M16A2 lower being changed to limit auto to 3-round bursts to prevent wasting ammunition.

I agree completely that disciplined, aimed rifle fire in semi mode, even when used as suppressing fire, is substantially more effective. Need more volume from automatic suppressing fire? Bring up the SAW, M60, or M240 and fire in bursts. They have a much better psychological effect, especially from the M60 and its M240 successor.

I'm not far off from your observations. The exception is the M14A1, but it must be used properly with the requisite training and experience, noticeably more than required for an M16A1 in FA mode. When fielded the FA capable were rolled out to replace the BAR man. Everyone else was semi. IMHO one of the arguments for the M16A1 replacing the M14 being easier to ramp a recruit from zero rifle experience to qualifying during Basic Combat Training with much fewer needing remedial training. I cannot imagine my needing FA for self defense for other than a "Red Dawn" scenario, a remotely conceivable but not a credible one. Even with that, ammunition would be at a premium, not to be wasted.

John

 

[ATM]

...No one is interested in the "freedom" argument anymore. That was so 2012.

Those who beat their bump fire stocks into plowshares will [STRIKE]plow for[/STRIKE] ...make me sammiches.

 

[jamil]

I agree with your reasoning jamil, but the best response I've heard articulated is to just say no and tell them to run their 2018 campaigns on gun control if they don't like it

I'm good with that position. As long as we get a big enough mic to properly rebut the crazies. Say no and run on gun control in 2018. And drop some serious talk on people.

 

[actaeon277]

Yeah, 5'10" and 255lbs...I was that guy. We were doing a cross country assault exercise in the southern Alps in Feb back in the late '70's. I jumped over a hedge, steel pot, cigar, poncho toting the -60. The evaluator said "My God, it's Vick Morrow".


Edit: All right...I get it now...never mind the work drive by level of comprehension. Carry on.

And if they need someone to crawl into a small space, try being 5 foot 8, and 110 pounds.
Next thing you know, you're stuck and no one knows how to get you out.

 

[actaeon277]

Even Politifact has to tell the truth once in a while.

No, gun silencers wouldn't have worsened the Las Vegas shooting | PolitiFact

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

It's brilliant for the guy selling it. It's stupid for the guy buying it.

 

[actaeon277]

Meh....I don’t have one so when the time comes, im going to pick my battles and this doesn’t seem to be a hill I want to die on.

Yup.
I guess we now just protect only what "we" want.
And then wonder why we're picked off one small group at a time.

 

[actaeon277]

If they ban bump stocks cause they shoot semi auto rifles too fast what are we going to do with Jerry Miculuk

Pretty sure he's next on the ban list.

 

[Leadeye]

Pretty sure he's next on the ban list.

Got a good laugh out of that one ACT.

 

[jamil]

Pretty sure he's next on the ban list.

Fenstein probably has had a bill drafted, sitting on the shelf waiting for the next new crisis.

 

[JAL]

Has anyone mentioned here that he had hotel reservations in August for a hotel in Chicago that overlooked Lollapalooza, but he never showed?

Las Vegas gunman booked hotel overlooking Lollapalooza, report says | WGN-TV

I've seen the reports on that and another booking in Las Vegas and IIRC there was one for a hotel next to or near a baseball stadium on the east coast. I'm not too influenced by this, especially with the other hotel in Las Vegas. The man was wealthy from his property investments. He gambled all the time in the casinos and stayed in their hotels. He also traveled frequently. At this point, unless they find a manifesto or some online searches and other activity related to those bookings that offer some solid evidence about why he had at least tentative travel plans, it's speculation. Major cities have a stream of events throughout the year. IMO at this point it doesn't bump the needle past coincidence. The press is blaring on about any conceivable correlation they can make, no matter how remote it might be without further facts. It makes for great sound bites, news tickers and ratings.

John

 

[AmmoManAaron]

Fenstein probably has had a bill drafted, sitting on the shelf waiting for the next new crisis.

Without a doubt. Her and others. A ban was proposed in Illinois today that picks up about everything (assault weapons, .50 cal, hi-cap mags). They didn't make it up all over night.

 

[AmmoManAaron]

A certain well-known auction site just took down all the bump and slide fire type listings.

They are still up on Gunbroker

 

[actaeon277]

[video=youtube;WzHG-ibZaKM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHG-ibZaKM[/video]


Show all your "no one needs a semi-auto" friends this, and they'll want to ban revolvers.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Yup.
I guess we now just protect only what "we" want.
And then wonder why we're picked off one small group at a time.

Apparently the "not one more inch" cry of 2012 is dead since they're going a novelty item instead of my high capacity magazines or assault rifles...........this time.