Accidental Discharge at a Denver Gun Show

[finity]

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/635663052_7fhXL-M.jpg[/IMG]

Since the group above is predominantly black I assume you think that black people can't be conservatives? How do you know that those people are liberals? Have you personally spoken to them or have you read news accounts of their political beliefs or at least their motivation for killing (I assume they're all killers somehow).

Also, killing one person does not constitute a "spree". It makes you a murderer but not a spree killer. (Oh BTW there are plenty of ordinary conservative murderers, too)

By "spree" I mean the standard definition of several people being killed (or attempted/planned) in a short period of time.

Do the people above fit that category? I kind of doubt it.

Oh...& your racism is showing.

No, one at a time isn't enough, they kill nations...

Oh, really? So you think that conservatives haven't been responsible for the majority of national killings throughout history?

I guess first we have to define "liberal" & "conservative". I'm going to assume that by "liberal" you are going to claim that all communists/atheists are liberals so I'll go with that & say that all fascists/religious fanatics are conservatives. Stalin, Mao & Pol Pot were "liberals" by your definition but the Crusaders, Hitler, Mussolini, the 9/11 terrorists, all devout middle-eastern dictators, the Inquisition, The Colonial British, Spanish & French, the kings of the Bible & GWB are all conservatives. Every one of those groups have been responsible for massive deaths of people throughout history. Even our Founders were mass murderers by your definition. Entire populations (i.e. "nations") of Native peoples were exterminated to make room for our expansion.

Religious conservatives have been responsible for more murder & death throughout history than any other cause.

You can deny the facts all you want but it doesn't make them false.

 

[rwbrown]

i personally don't think most criminals even have a political affiliation and probably have never voted in their life.

 

[bglaze]

I'm okay with the term "negligent discharge" in this instance. Someone said earlier that the term "negligent" is a lawyer term used to assess blame.

That sounds about right. The person who shot this gun IS to blame. Even if there are others who should share the blame, the shooter violated too many safety rules, and someone else paid the consequences because of it.

If it had been me who got shot, or my wife, or one of my children, I would sue the ass off of both the shooter and the dealer, and I would win. Because they are to blame.

Yes, **** happens. But if even one of the primary safety rules would have been followed, then no one would have been shot.

I really feel for the family of the victim.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Ah, no. FPD nailed it.

Jeff Cooper's Rules of Gun Safety

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

Lawyers or not, calling it "accidental" implies some element of chance. The handler may not have intended to fire a round, but he is responsible for it regardless of his intentions. The accurate term "negligent discharge" places the responsibility where it belongs.

ETA: I wouldn't put it past some anti-gun commie lib activist to pull a stunt like dropping rounds into chambers when nobody is looking. All the more reason to follow Coopers rules.

Man you are way out of date daddy'O. None of that stuff matters if I check it twice and lay a dime on the front sight or buy a few plastic spring things like I read the elite SWAT teams do in the Punisher comics. Beside Massood Ayoobiedoobie said it would be fine.

Besides it's all a plot by anti gun union libtards and Obama supporters planting amo in guns to support commy health care.

 

[Jack Ryan]

I'm okay with the term "negligent discharge" in this instance. Someone said earlier that the term "negligent" is a lawyer term used to assess blame.

That sounds about right. The person who shot this gun IS to blame. Even if there are others who should share the blame, the shooter violated too many safety rules, and someone else paid the consequences because of it.

Exactly. The person who pulls the trigger is the one RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT RESULTS. Nothing else much matters other than if you happen to be the guardian responsible for that person YOU PUT IN A POSITION TO PULL THE TRIGGER.

Doesn't matter if it's in the woods, on a trap range or at a gun show. Who's finger pulled the trigger.

 

[HICKMAN]

Since the group above is predominantly black I assume you think that black people can't be conservatives?

You shouldn't assume anything, I know quite a few black conservatives. Even though Olberman/Mathews and the rest of the media tries to convince the rest of the country othewise.

How do you know that those people are liberals?

Nope, but I don't know any conservatives with Obama shirts.

oh BTW there are plenty of ordinary conservative murderers, too

Yup, we all know that.

Oh...& your racism is showing.

Nope, that'd be your straw man trying to paint someone as a racist.

I didn't mention anyone's race in this post, you did. I didn't take the picture, I don't report the statistics of crime based on race. Facts are facts, if you don't like them, that doesn't make me a racist.

Call me what you like, you looked at the picture and pointed it out...

IMPD put up YouTube - IndyUnsolved's Channel

does that make them racist? Or wait... does that make ME racist for linking to it?

 

[HICKMAN]

Oh, really? So you think that conservatives haven't been responsible for the majority of national killings throughout history?



Religious conservatives have been responsible for more murder & death throughout history than any other cause.

You can deny the facts all you want but it doesn't make them false.

That sounds real cool and all, but a LOT of Catholics and Jews voted for Obama...

I guess it's a little difficult for your religious argument to really mean anything when there are so many religious folks on the left. I guess that doesn't matter since you like to assume that every conservative is religious.

 

[Shay]

My instructor told me a story one time about a guy who had a table set up next to him at a gun show. He asked the next door dealer to look at a gun he had on display. The guy handed him the pistol barrel forward to start with and a closed slide.

The instructor did what he tells us to do: Remove the magazine, rack the slide three times, and check the barrel with your pinky finger. Guess what he found? Yep, a loaded firearm with the safety off!

I've never understood the "rack 3 times" idea. Yes, I get the 'reason', but I don't buy it.

 

[ATM]

I've never understood the "rack 3 times" idea...

Careful, I don't want to get any Tony Orlando songs stuck in my head today.


But I don't get it either.

I guess if I observed or felt something in there after the first rack I would rack it again.

 

[Bendrx]

Okay, started to reply once, then held back but this baits is just too savory to pass up twice. My tolerance for "progressives" is rather slight so just a couple comments to nobody directly, and in the spirit of "Just my 2 cents"

1) Men running around trying to kill police in the name of Christ has and will happened. But they are not Christians doing it, if Christians were to do it, they would be abandoning thier beliefs and their Christianity so no longer Christian. Seeing as they've been at this a awhile, they didn't just make a mistake, they gave up thier beliefs and never bothered to relabel themselves.

2) Fascist believe in a strong central government running the show. So it is much closer to a "liberals" thinking than conservative thinking. Fascist, Communist, Socialist. Take you're flavor, they are much farther to the left than the right, and principals of the european union. As a rather conservative person, I take offense to being likened to a fascist or any other "totalitarian lover".

There is an old "saying/story" for lack of a better term goes along the lines of "Hitler and Stalin got the left and right thing going so that no matter which end you run to/from, your right were you left but under a differant name." Don't know if it's a true story, but it works out that way.

To the far right is Anarchy, and no government whatsoever aside from maybe some tribes in Mad Max. Either way, you have Dems on the far left and Reps on the nearish left.

{Topic related here:}

Now to the topic at hand. I never pull any triggers at gun shows for 2 reasons, one I do believe that "A gun is always loaded" with 1 exception, and that is in the face of clear and utter obviousness that it isn't. So a broken down gun is unloaded, but a gun I checked 2 minutes ago and never took out of my hand may very well be loaded. If I'm going to take it apart to clean, I will check that it's unloaded only moments before I pull the slide off. (And I look while pulling the slide off too). It's a shame, I don't feel blaming this on the liberals or conservatives in a plot to blame the liberals is anything more than foolish. It's very simple you see. If the only finger prints on the casing is that of the store employees you can smack the guy who pulled the trigger on the wrist if it can be shown he is green to guns. The store owner is then up for being charged/billed. If the finger print belongs to another person then find out who...they likely have a prints of file if they do that for carry permits. (And I think the type of person that would load live rounds into guns like that would likely be on file for other reasons already) If there are no prints on the casing then we can start a witch hunt for lack of anything else to do. Ok, that was alittle long, hope somebody enjoys my ramblings.

Additionally, anyone who spouts off that "...is proving thier racism..." at random is a racist in my book, or at the least a poor use of oxygen.

 

[Joe Williams]

Careful, I don't want to get any Tony Orlando songs stuck in my head today.

snip.

Just so you know, you suck.

 

[HICKMAN]

Just so you know, you suck.

amen....

and since I got that !@$#!@# song in my head, I'm sharing the video!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7Jvsbcxunc"]YouTube - Tony Orlando & Dawn sing Knock Three Times[/ame]

 

[ATM]

 

[Jack Ryan]

No. Someone doesn't hate the phrase "all guns are always loaded". They hate that the rest of the "rule" is left out. The part that says "until you have personally verified that it's not & maintain absolute control over it". That does change things just a little.

The most important rule they broke here is the one that says to keep your finger off the trigger until the muzzle is in a safe direction. That one rule will prevent 99% of all injuries relating to negligence. It doesn't matter (in the vast majority of cases) whether the gun is loaded or not. If you don't put your finger on the trigger it won't go off barring a rare mechanical failure.



You can be "pissed" all you want but unfortunately that is the nature of a crowded gun-show. There is physically no way that someone can pick up a gun & NOT point it at or "strafe" the crowd (wrong choice of word but I'll go with it).

Sure there is.

I see many people make the same arguements here every time this happens. I hear it all the time at gun shops and gun shows where people are ignoring basic safety rules like they don't apply just because they are at a gun show.

It's really pretty simple but I NEVER SEE THESE GUYS WHO ARGUE THEY ARE PERFECTLY SAFE put the gun they are so confident in to their own head and test the trigger. Never seen it once. Never even seen them point it at their own foot, hand, or chest and test that trigger. They are always pointing at some one else and blathering the same arguements you've made here. Right before the gun goes off at the gun show and right after.

Point it at YOUR OWN HEAD and test the trigger all you want. You'll never hear a peep of a complaint from me. Show me you have the confidence in your own skills you ask me to have at the gun show and at the gun shop in people I don't know, never met, and don't want to.

 

[Glock21]

Sure there is.

I see many people make the same arguements here every time this happens. I hear it all the time at gun shops and gun shows where people are ignoring basic safety rules like they don't apply just because they are at a gun show.

It's really pretty simple but I NEVER SEE THESE GUYS WHO ARGUE THEY ARE PERFECTLY SAFE but the gun they are so confident in to their own head and test the trigger. Never seen it once. Never even seen them point it at their own foot, hand, or chest and test that trigger. They are always pointing at some one else and blathering the same arguements you've made here. Right before the gun goes off at the gun show and right after.

Point it at YOUR OWN HEAD and test the trigger all you want. You'll never hear a peep of a complaint from me. Show me you have the confidence in your own skills you ask me to have at the gun show and at the gun shop in people I don't know, never met, and don't want to.

AMEN!

There certainly is a way to handle guns in a gunshop without pointing them at others - don't. Don't point them at others. It would take nothing for every gunshop out there to hang some kevlar on a wall, or designate a brick wall as a "safe direction", and then have employees walk guns over to that area (muzzle down) and let people handle them till their heart is content. There is no reason I have to be subjected to another customers mishandling of a firearm. A gunshops desire to not embaress or correct a potential customer is not a good enough reason to throw the four rules out the window.

And at a gun show, rifles need to be racked muzzle down, pistols can be racked the same way. Both may then be handled in conjunction with the Safe Direction products:

safe direction gun handling safety and training products

 

[finity]

Jack, first off I wasn't talking about pulling the trigger while pointing the gun at someone. That would be just plain stupid. Could you please read my post again. Not the words you want to see but the ones I actually wrote.

I was talking about picking the gun up from the table. In a crowded gun show arena where there are literally thousands of people it's physicall impossible to pick up a gun and not sweep at least one person. As soon as you touch the gun you'll be pointing at someone.

Also notice I'm talking about crowded gunshows NOT gunshops who only have a few customers at the place at any given time. At those places I completely agree that not sweeping someone is possible and shouldn't be done.

To the poster who sys that people who point out racists are themselves racist, that's one of the most ridiculous things I've heard in a while. Are yiuvtrying to say that the black people who marched to get the civil rights laws passed in the 60's were all racists? I guess we can never, ever call a racist a racist because then we would be racists ourselves.

I think you're also confusing conservatism with libertarianism. Conservatives want to keep things the same no matter how bad it is. Libertarians are the ones who want to keep the government out of peoples lives as much as possible. The extreme end of THAT is anarchy.

conservatism - definition of conservatism by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

 

[IndyMonkey]

Unless someone is laying under the table that they gun was sitting on there seems to be a safer direction to point the gun than at me pushing my kid in a stroller.

 

[Benny]

Quite a few people had to violate most if not all the rules for this NEGLIGENT discharge to happen. Nothing accidental about it

Pretty much this...

BTW, I hate when someone calls a negligent discharge "accidental."

 

[herby31]

i was at the indy 1500 about a year and a half ago and some [STRIKE]knucklehead[/STRIKE] gentleman shot himself in the foot with a derringer. apparently he was having difficulty pulling his pocket pistol out of his pocket and grabbed the trigger like a handle or something. i don't know much about derringers so i can't speculate MUCH on how it happened.

 

[zky]

This absolutely shouldn't happen...unbelievable...