Aaron 1776 Goes to Mindset...

[Aaron1776]

5/3/13 The Night before (Ok as I post this it's technically the morning of)

So I have been excited about Mindset since I first heard of it when I joined INGO this past winter. I had been looking for good force on force training, but normally schools require you to take their approved live fire courses (and usually multiple) before you can take their FoF classes. This annoys me greatly because I see gun operation and actual firearms tactics to be two different skill sets that are both complementary to eachother and both required parts of a real training cycle. (I also see training as a cylical thing as inevitably one set of skills degrades as you work on another)

I'll give you a little bit of my perspective of crime and violence, and my experiences in training, so that you know how I am approaching this experience.

I learned the fundamentals of shooting as every boy should, at age 7 with an air rifle. At the age of 11 I learned to shoot a real gun using an M1 Garand, a 1911, and a Beretta 92fs. Formal training came from Boy Scouts, ROTC, paid combative training, and multiple trips to Front Sight Nevada. My informal training includes private instruction from my cousin who was a paratrooper, an old Vietnam veteran and police officer who had been in many shootings, my WW2 veteran grandfather, and my uncle, the expert on everything historical and firearms related. Plus I am an avid reader and training video watcher. (Really enjoyed the Magpul series for example. I would absolutely love to learn from either Costa or Haley...even if I do find their overly complicated malfunction clearance system somewhat goofy. I wanted to take Haley's class here in Indiana, but this year FoF is the focus on the training docket, not more range training. You have priorities in your training or you'll just flail around.) Through all of that I learned how to fight with a rifle and pistol, clear malfunctions, small unit tactics, clear rooms, grapple, retain my firearm, manuever, conceal myself, etc.

My training has been heavily influenced by two factors. First and foremost, there is a distinct military flavor to everything I do. This is becuase of the obvious reasons that I was in ROTC and 90%+ of the people who have trained me were ex soldiers ranging from regular infantry up to special forces. I am very much in the effeciency of movement/get aggressive corner of the training spectrum. That's probably why I wanted to do FoF to begin with. The second factor that has greatly influenced me is that I was a successful wrestler for nearly six years. I learned by going balls to the wall, fighting other people, and having the humility to pick fights with guys better than me, so I could learn from getting my clock cleaned. These two factors have caused to be continually reassessing what I'm doing and why I'm doing it and to continually be willing to stretch myself until I fail.

My experiences with the criminal underclass are as follows:

• When I was 14, three gunmen, fresh off of botching an armed robbery, came tearing into my school in their flight from the cops. One of the gunmen came within about 3-5 feet of me. My wrestling coach/ history teacher probably saved my bacon when he came charging after the guy and yelled at me to get out of there. Luckily the gunmen ended up being pussies and let themselves get cornered and caught instead of taking hostages. It turned out later that all three were from my school system and they ranged from age 14 to 16. That was a fact that was kept as quiet as possible.
• When I was 17, I witnessed a man attack my neighbor's home at 2 am. This was probably the event that really sparked my interest in personal defense.
• When I was 20, two men attempted an armed robbery on my mother and I. By then I was armed (for obvious reasons). Things did not go their way. They ran.
• When I was 25, several men, one armed with a knife, attempted to draw myself and a friend into a fight as we were leaving our gym. I don't believe they realized that we were both packing. The situation was defused.
• I went to a high school filled with "students" who were in gangs, did/dealt drugs, had arrest records, etc, as a result I found myself in about half a dozen unarmed conflicts. By the age of 16 I had left two guys in need of immediate medical attention. (This was not by choice. How I survived without being arrested, expelled, or suspended in a zero tolerance school was a mix of luck and teachers willing to look the other way.) By the time I had graduated, I had watched six year old boys and girls grow up to become complete low life criminals.
• Finally, I work in a downtown ER, so I see the results of succesfful criminal attacks and the results of criminals losing to the good guys. Let me tell you something, the term "low crime city" is an absolutely relative idea.

These experiences have helped turn me into the man I am today, and they have certainly woken me up to the realities of violence and the criminal mindset.


Thus, the night before this class I'm wondering a few things:

Will Mindset's portrayal of criminals be true to life?
Will the tactics be applicable to the every day civilian?
Will I really learn new tactics and techniques, or will I find better ways to do old ones?
How realistic is this really going to be?

I have no idea what tomorrow is going to hold, but I do know that I'm going to walk in there, check my ego at the door, try to wipe my mind clean of preconceptions, listen, and try to ask pertinent questions.
Hopefully at some point I'll get my clock cleaned and learn from it.

I have a feeling tomorrow is going to be a great day.

 

[scottka]

Good luck, man. I'm sure you'll learn a lot about yourself and what you could improve on since I know you're going in with a mind open to ideas. I hope to see an AAR and I'm hoping to save up enough money during my summer job to be able to get Mindset training next semester.

 

[Trigger Time]

I don't think you need anymore training. It's sounds like you have mastered so much and all you need now is a drop leg holster with a ccw badge so the bad guys know your serious. Have fun at class!

 

[esrice]

Sorry I couldn't be there today, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts after today's training.

 

[esrice]

I'm guessing Aaron1776 decided to also sign up for Dynamic Force on Force Scenarios today because we haven't seen an update yet.

 

[Jackson]

I'm guessing Aaron1776 decided to also sign up for Dynamic Force on Force Scenarios today because we haven't seen an update yet.

I just came from the Dynamic FoF class. I don't think there was anyone named Aaron.

 

[esrice]

I just came from the Dynamic FoF class. I don't think there was anyone named Aaron.

Well then he's late on an update.

 

[Shay]

Aaron was in Saturday's class, but not today's. I'm sure he will post an update when he has a chance.

 

[Aaron1776]

The AAR will be coming soon guys! I have pics, thoughts, a thorough review, and lots of lessons learned. I'll probably submit some details to Shay first because I don't want to inadvertantly give anything away.
Last night I had plans and today I was spending time with friends from out of town....which is OK because I really needed to collected my thoughts, assess, self-criticize (positively), and decide what to write.

 

[SumtnFancy]

Would love to read it, I am considering taking the class as well. My previous training is not as extensive as yours, but I do make everyone refer to me as "CobraCommander", which makes up a little ground.

 

[Aaron1776]

The AAR will be posted tonight guys!
Right after I get home from the ER......whenever that will be.

 

[Aaron1776]

The AAR

Between career stuff, family, and re-writing the review, life has conspired to keep me from posting the review for more than a week now. I apologize for that.

Originally I was going to write a completely different review. I wasn’t going to talk a ton about the training. I wanted people to take Shay’s course to find out what he had to teach, not hear it from me. Also this is Indiana Gun Owners, people want to talk about guns. I like to give the people what they want. However, after Shay read my review, he didn’t like it. I believe his exact words were “You’re purposely feeding the problem, Aaron. Too many people are far too gear focused.”. That was convicting for me, because I know it’s true. So many of my gun-owning friends simply don’t train enough nor do they train efficiently. Yet, I do 90% of my writing, be it political, about the ER, or firearms related, to be entertaining. However, self-defense shouldn’t be about entertainment.
For me, self-defense hasn’t been academic. It’s been real. Employing my firearm has literally saved my life and my mother’s from attackers, and it’s allowed me to live without having to kill another human being. (Best outcome possible) That was only possible because I had the mindset to be aware, had drawn a mental line in the sand as to when I would pull, and had made use of the tools I had available without losing myself in the weeds of being gear focused. My risk factors of another encounter are also higher than the average person. I hang around a lot of politicians who have death threats on them. Being highly active in politics myself, I have personally received threats and found myself in dicey situations. The Game of Thrones tends to draw ruthless people. Furthermore, baring a major shift in career priorities, I will always live or work in or around Indianapolis. Indianapolis is a major city, and “low crime city” is completely a relative term. Low crime compared to what? Chicago? Sure.
Compared to Bloomfield Indiana? Hardly. Moreover, there are people from my past who are now criminals, and I know that, given the opportunity, they would try to hurt me if they could. Thus, given the seriousness of the issue in my own life, I decided to re-write my review in a more serious tone. I think it’s only appropriate.

5/04/13
Having been instructed to arrive early, I walked into the building where Mindset is located at about 8:45. I was a little surprised to find that I was one of the last people to arrive. Apparently we had a class of people eager to learn. The class was made up of a mother/daughter combo, a father/son combo, a pair of friends, a firefighter, another gentleman, and me. Interestingly enough, most of the people in the class were either related or went to the same church or were in the same social circles. Talk about a safe group of people to have in your life! The one thing that did surprise me was that I was the only one with any prior training. Normally in firearms classes I find at least one ex-military/ police type. Not that it matters. I was just glad to see people there and willing to learn how to defend themselves. The class size was small, only 9 students. I thought that was great. Having more than 9 people would make FoF training a zoo.
Lesson Number One:
I quickly introduced myself to Shay, and I knew immediately that I would like him. He was personable and opinionated, but not full of himself. The first lesson of the day took place before class even began. Shay asked me what I carried, and my reply was something along the lines of "Depends. I have a 1911 operator and an M&P 9mm that I carry depending in the situation."
I could immediately tell by the look on his face that he did not like my answer, and the next words out of his mouth were "You need to simplify to one gun, your answer was way too complicated." Later this point was reiterated several times by simply repeating "Simplify your ****". lol Also, throughout the day many good jokes about me duel wielding my M&P and 1911 were made.
This is where our first divergence in mindset became evident. Shay is in the “Simple is always better” corner. I am in the “train up” corner. My motto has always been “Any gun will do, if you will do the work.” I don’t care if you have three different platforms…..so long as you’re willing to do three times the practice. This comes from the more military style mindset that was ingrained in me that a warrior should be skilled with multiple platforms and types. After all, when the scum bags come a knocking, you honestly don’t know which gun you’re going to have closest at hand. Will it hopefully be your EDC gun? Yes. Could it also be that your wife’s (or roommate’s) gun is the closest gun when you come walking out of the shower? Or perhaps you’re like many people and have multiple weapons stashed around the house. I know I am in that category, (the house is too big to only have one gun to get to) and I don’t have the money to buy 3 M&Ps and still maintain my shooting hobby. I do however have two pistols I can keep around the house and reach in an emergency. Both of them operate the same, and one of them is a 9mm that most women would like. (Still hoping to get married here. Lol) Thus I train with them both equally, and honestly I end up training with both more because I don’t get bored with it. Thus I don’t mind which one I carry.

But the bottom line here isn’t “which or how many platforms should I run?” The bottom line here is you need to train, train, train. Shay believes that it should be on one weapon system. I believe that isn’t entirely realistic for most of the gun owning community, and that there is value in being skilled on more than one platform type. That being said, I’m not for you having a gun that you carry during the spring, one for the summer, one for the fall, one for the winter, one for church, one for dates, and one for Wal-Mart. That would be insanity. No one realistically has the time to train that much, and typically people who do that don’t ever train because they’re busy arguing on INGO about what the best gun ever is.

However, in the spirit of being open minded, I told Shay that I would try things his way for a while and give his mode of operation its fair shake. I will do my research, weigh it against my current methods, and train up on my M&P. (It’s a new platform for me. I recently ditched my XD.) However, if I find that I actually end up training less because I’m bored with the one platform (as was the case with my XD), I’ll be going back to my old system.

Mindset Lecture:
The lecture started promptly at 9am. I really appreciated Shay's perspective on the proper mindset of self-defense and safety. One of the striking differences Shay has in his lecture, when compared to other instructors, is that he stresses the reality of your chances of getting into a gunfight. Being killed by another person ranks 15th on likely causes of death. You’re more likely to commit suicide than be killed by another. Thus, if we are to have a realistic, holistic approach to safety and defense, then we also need to be concerned with our physical health, mental health, the environment that we choose to live and work in, and our readiness for accidents. I totally agreed with his assessment. The only thing I could say in response to this is that to keep in mind that statistics are not applicable to individual. They are only applicable to large groups. You don’t know where in the stats you are going to fall. You may never have to use your training to live. Great. Then again you could also end up like me or other men and have some magnetic ability to attract the criminal element of society. Also, murdering you isn’t the only thing a criminal may choose do to, and many “killings” every year aren’t counted as “murders” because they are in self defense. Thus your chances of being the target of armed criminal are much higher than just the murder rate. So don’t take this is an excuse to let your training slack if you own a gun. Just realize that there are other skills will be more likely to be employed, like first responder training….which is a great segue into medical training.
Getting more medical training was a great point that Shay made. Accidents and trauma are more common than we would like to think about. We are all quite likely to be in or witness an accident of some sort. I know that I have used my first responder training far more often than I ever thought I would (about as often as my self-defense training), and I honestly need to take some refresher courses because it is likely that I will have to use it again in the future.

Another great point Shay made was to get into state of being in good physical condition. Especially as a medical professional, this really hit home for me. I could rant and rave for hours about the benefits of being in shape and how it improves your life, but I will instead relay the two points Shay made. Being in better shape makes you better able to fight. You have a higher lung capacity, you can run longer, you’re stronger, faster, etc. How much better off will you be if you can outrun the crack head who has ruined his lungs with a lifetime of hard drug abuse and smoking? Also, healthy, in shape people heal faster. Getting wounded in a fight is a big possibility. Being able to heal faster not only improves your quality of living, but it also readies you for that next emergency that you may encounter faster.
I think the biggest take away I had came in the point that Shay made to the mother in the room. When it became obvious that a big part of her mindset was to defend her children, Shay made the point that her life had value in and of itself. Would her daughter's life not be greatly diminished by the loss of her mother? It was an excellent point that I've always believed but never been able to vocalize until now. Even if you don’t value your own life highly, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value. If you love your family and friends, you will realize that THEY value you, and it will hurt them deeply if you are gone. Thus I believe, as does Shay, that you have a duty not to let someone kill you before your time.

Mindset Pledge:
OK it might sound cheesy, but dang it I really loved the Mindset Pledge. I won’t sit here and quote it, but the point was this. My life has value. I will live a life worth defending. I will become harder to kill and dangerous to people who try to hurt me.
Those are ideals that I live by, and it was really cool to see an instructor teaching them to his students.

Gear:
I don’t want to sit here and get into which caliber or platform is better, but I do want to discuss the Shay’s thinking on choosing gear vs my own.
Shay made the most coherent argument that I have ever heard as to why he believed that the 9mm was the best choice for defensive use. He made this point. 9mm will do the job. (Agreed) It’s cheaper to shoot. Thus you’ll shoot it more, be more skilled with it, and thus be better at running your gun. That is FAR more important than the caliber you are running. That is solid, excellent logic that I can appreciate. The only way that it differs from my mindset is that I don’t believe your skill is determined by how many live rounds you put through the barrel. I believe that it is your dry practice that makes you excellent at running a gun. I honestly think that you should do nine dry runs for every live round you shoot. Thus, I really don’t care if you run .45, .40, or 9mm, just so long as it is a caliber that is common and easy to get ammo for, because obviously shooting the gun is important too. However, the main point we are both in agreement on. How much you train is INFINITELY more important than the caliber you use. There is no magic bullet. There will never be a magic bullet. Quit worrying about which caliber/ manufacturer/ self-defense design is the best. Pick a caliber that is empirically proven to do the job and train with it.

Shay is solidly in the “Glock or M&P only” category in choosing a platform. This is again the “simple/reliable is always better” mindset. He also believes that 1911s are not fighting guns. I come from an opposite angle. My argument is that people need to choose the gun that they like. Why? Because if we are going to be realistic about human nature, we need to admit that people are going to shoot and train with the gun that they love a lot more than the gun that they hate. The more that you train with and shoot a gun, the more proficient you will be, and you should carry the guns you are most proficient with. Yes, I realize that the M&P and Glock are more reliable than other platforms. But I have to pose this question: How reliable does a gun have to be in order to be considered reliable enough for EDC? Is the M&P/ Glock “it’ll last for 80 years after the apocalypse” overkill for EDC when you could instead buy a gun that you enjoy training with and thus will train with it more? We aren’t soldiers or choosing the most economical guns for a police department. We’re not choosing weapons that will be shot 10,000 times a year. We aren’t forced to train, and people need all of the motivation that they can get to train. I could buy a Glock tomorrow. That would be a terrible decision for me because I hate Glocks, will never want to train with one, and thus will have to force myself to train. That isn’t going to lead to me being the best warrior I can be. That being said, there needs to be realism. Obviously carrying a crappy Kel-tec .380 or a Hi-Point that has a reputation for breaking is a terrible decision.

As for not believing 1911s are fighting guns, I will just say this. My experiences have been the TOTAL opposite of Shay’s. He can count on one hand how many 1911s he saw make it through his class for the year he taught at Tactical Response. I’ve personally never seen a 1911 go down, even after shooting thousands of rounds through them. Not in classes and not at the range. Then again, I’ve always shot 1911s that adhered to either my grandfather’s or Hilton Yam’s selection/testing/and maintenance process for a 1911. Only one view can be correct here. Either Shay’s/ James Yeager’s viewpoint of 1911s is influenced by people who don’t know what they are doing, or Hilton Yam and his police department have been incredibly lucky with their 1911 EDC selections. I will find out for myself. My 1911 has passed all of the tests I have been taught and what Hilton Yam recommends. Either my 1911 will survive the heavy abuse I’m giving it, or it won’t. We shall see. Luckily during this time I’ll have my M&P 9mm to carry around until I reach a conclusion.

Finally, Shay posed this question to me when he asked me about my manual safeties on my guns: “What does it buy you?”. I thought about it for a while, and this is my response. It buys me my gun not going off when something snags in my holster. Especially when you’re a small guy like me who can’t effectively conceal hard-shell holsters, this is a real consideration. It buys me not worrying about it when I put it in my gym bag, and it buys me performing tactical movement safely. (How many paintball matches have I seen where the guy slips, instinctively curls his hand around his gun, and sets off the trigger? This has happened in combat too, and is one of the reasons people harp manual safeties.) Agree or not, that’s fine. But I work in an ER, I see the results of this sort of stuff. Those manual safeties do have a purpose. The question becomes this: What is more likely? A guy who trains all of the time failing to disengage his safety before shooting….or having a ND in one of the aforementioned scenarios? I think they’re both equally unlikely.

Gun handling and Draw Stroke:
Everything taught was focused around the ccw guy carrying and operating a gun in public. I found it to be wonderfully applicable and informative. The basic four count draw method was employed, which I really like. Shay also taught us to yell “stop!” on count one (assuming that’s practical in the situation). Having that rehearsed and ready to go is actually quite useful I think. People often react to verbal commands whether they want to or not, and it could very well buy you another instant of time that you need. Also, it makes it quite clear to everyone around you who the aggressor in this fight is, and it keeps you from yelling something stupid like “die mother******!!!” under stress. (I’ve seen people do stranger things.) That could very well come in handy when the police do their investigation. I also really liked Shay’s presentation of using the Sabrina method. To be quite honest, I used to mock the Sabrina method. I mean honestly, how couldn’t I? But Shay really changed my mind on this when he demonstrated its usefulness. Up until now, I used position Sul. It was easy, pointed the gun down, and folded out on target naturally. The Sabrina, while it doesn’t fold out quite as naturally as Sul, does move the gun into your sight line so that you can see if it’s fine, reminds you to top off your gun, points the gun into a safe direction, and doesn’t fold out badly into a shooting position. The only advantage to Sul is if you had to move through a crowded area. (And I’ll probably use Sul in that situation) Having your gun pointed at the ground is far more likely to be seen as non-threatening whereas having a gun pointed up may not be.

We also discussed concealed carry and open carry. Here I was really convicted of how lazy my gun carrying habits have become over time. I haven’t yet bought a decent holster for my new platform, and I have been OCing some simply because I have been too lazy to dress to my gun. While OC does offer you much faster access to your gun, and will likely dissuade pissant criminals from bothering you, truly violent criminals with intent to harm will come for you whether or not you are armed. Thus, all you have done is exposed the fact that you have a gun and have given them the opportunity to plan accordingly. If they don’t know you are armed, their plan of attack beforehand probably won’t account for it, and that will give you an advantage. Thus, if you are going to OC, you must be 1000% aware. I for one will be investing in some excellent CC gear and return to my old CC habits of dressing to my full sized gun. If I do OC, I will be exceedingly selective about the situation. (Example: Tromping around the woods alone. Don’t really want the gun rubbing on my skin in that situation.)

The only thing I didn’t like about Mindset’s gun handling methods comes from the Tactical Response school of thought. Mindset teaches you to rack the slide every time you top off your gun. I find this to be odd. What’s more likely? My well made firearm somehow managed to return to battery without picking up another round from the previous magazine?, or that I’m going to need that round sometime during this fight? I would say both are very unlikely for CC applications, but that the latter is more likely overall. Then again I don’t do reflexive malfunction clearance either. Use your brain before your hand. Just another difference in philosophy.

After the fight:
Shay's advice on how to call 911, what to tell them, and when to stop talking was excellent. The same goes for his advice about talking to cops. Working in politics, I know a lot of lawyers. You will never find a competent attorney who advocates making a statement after shooting in self defense. If the cops don't make statements about shooting criminals for 8-72 hours after the incident.....then why should you? The police are not on your side people. They are on the law's side at best and the government's side at worst.

Critiques:
There are three minor critiques that I could give to the Mindset training lectures. The first is talking about drawing a mental line in the sand before you ever reach a violent encounter. This is a major decision point that every person should have. You can’t be standing there deciding when it is you are going to act DURING the situation. For me, I try to avoid a potential threat. If I can’t avoid the threat, I attempt to talk or posture my way out of it. If the first two aren’t possible, and the intent and means commit a crime against me are displayed, peaceful solutions are over for me. Compliance is only an option if it buys me space with which to engage my opponent at a longer distance, which gives me an advantage as the trained individual. I cannot tell you how many times the words “He said he wouldn’t hurt me if I just complied” have been said. Thus I do not believe that compliance is ever a good option unless it buys you a tactical advantage. This also has a philosophical point attached. Even if he doesn’t hurt me, why should I reward him for committing crime? Should I let him get away with it so that he can be encouraged to take it the next level on his next victim? Bottom line, waiting for him to decide to shoot or stab you is a bad decision. Strike the immediate threat first if you can. Other people’s line in the sand may be different, but it needs to be thought out ahead of time.

The second would be including a section about what the students need to be mentally prepared to face. As the “good guys”, the criminal mindset is basically alien to our own. Even among the gun owning community, there are a lot of misconceptions about what criminals are actually like, how a criminal is going to draw you into a conflict, and what violence will be like. I believe knowing your enemy and how the average fight pans out has great value. Understanding the dire straits you will be in serves as a good motivator to practice.

The third and final critique is that I believe there needs to be more specifics on how to train and how much to train with your weapon. I think Shay would agree that the large majority of the gun owning community doesn’t practice enough. I believe that people are a lot more likely to train consistently if you give them goals on how much to practice and give them motivators to do so. Also, how to practice should be addressed. Even people who do their dry practice on a regular basis often don’t do it efficiently or safely.

In conclusion I would have to rate Mindset as a top tier training center. All discussion was based upon rational, well thought out logic. The wording, tempo, and depth of the course were extremely well calibrated. The cost was reasonable. I learned new tactics and better ways to do old ones, and the final scenario was quite realistic. Shay is a mix of easy going and hard-case. Thus students respect him enough to take him seriously but feel very comfortable talking to him. While I might quibble over the 1911, I completely understand his logic and why he teaches it. That is what he believes, and he wants to keep everything as simple as possible. At no point did I ever feel "attacked" for my opinions or beliefs. Shay is a gentleman as well as a scholar....even if he is wrong. Also, a final note about Shay, he is extremely dedicated to teaching his students. He actually spent 40 minutes on the phone with me discussing the final scenario, talking to me about why he believe his approach was better, etc. This was very impressive to me, and it showed me that he actually cared about his students. He and I may or may
not agree on every little thing, but he is an excellent instructor who I would not want to get into a gunfight with. I would definitely trust him to teach and/or protect my loved ones.
As I listed when I first started this thread, I have had a lot of very informative training experiences. I’ve met a lot of great people, learned a lot about weapons and how to run them, and made my own decisions on how to run my weapons. Going to Mindset was the very first time I had actually been challenged, both on what I believed and during the final training scenario. I’ve got a lot of stuff to weigh in my mind, and whether or not I choose to adopt one method or mindset over another, I will at least know why I do what I do and have logical reasons for those methods.
Truly, learning to run your gun is important, but, if you haven't inoculated your brain to stress via force on force, you're kidding yourself about your readiness. While I love 21 foot drills, take-aways with airsoft guns, etc, and find them quite useful, you need to immerse yourself and let Shay train your brain. Even if you've busted down doors with entry teams, jumped out of airplanes into combat zones, or led a squad on an assault against a bunker, team tactics is a completely different experience than fighting off criminals with nothing but yourself and a handgun. Obviously I have only discussed a fraction of what was said and what we did. For the rest of it, you'll need to go and experience it yourself.
I will be signing up for the dynamic force on force scenarios ASAP.

Pictures below. Sorry they turned out so grainy. It didn't appear that way when I was taking them.








The main street of "Unpleasantville"....the town Mindset has set up for you to train in.



Some of the training equipment.....which I completely forgot to get before leaving. Oh well


Small class sizes, as promised.


Shay intently listening to a student's question.


Shay and Me at the end of the day!

 

[esrice]

Between career stuff, family, and re-writing the review, life has conspired to keep me from posting the review for more than a week now. I apologize for that.

Thanks for taking the time to put this together. I'm always interested to hear how each student views each course-- it's always unique.

Below are some of my general comments upon reading your review.

The one thing that did surprise me was that I was the only one with any prior training. Normally in firearms classes I find at least one ex-military/ police type. Not that it matters. I was just glad to see people there and willing to learn how to defend themselves.

I too have been surprised by how many folks have taken Intro to Force on Force as their first "firearms training class". That's not a bad thing, but I would think that more "gun guys" would be into being able to test out the skills they've learned in other courses.

After all, when the scum bags come a knocking, you honestly don’t know which gun you’re going to have closest at hand.

You'll know if you always carry and train with the same [type of] gun.

However, if I find that I actually end up training less because I’m bored with the one platform (as was the case with my XD), I’ll be going back to my old system.

Here's the thing-- training, and whether its boring or not, shouldn't be dependent on the gun itself. Your ultimate goal is to be a safer person, and your training should reflect that, regardless of the tools used. If you get bored it's not the gun's fault.

Thus, if we are to have a realistic, holistic approach to safety and defense, then we also need to be concerned with our physical health, mental health, the environment that we choose to live and work in, and our readiness for accidents.

Indeed this is one aspect of Shay's training that I also found unique.

My argument is that people need to choose the gun that they like. Why? Because if we are going to be realistic about human nature, we need to admit that people are going to shoot and train with the gun that they love a lot more than the gun that they hate.

IMO "likeability" should be further down the list from "reliability", which should be right up at the top when selecting a gun for defending oneself. Again, it's just a tool, not a fashion accessory. Obviously a carry gun needs to meet other important criteria (not too big/heavy, impervious to sweat, etc), but being able to send bullets when I pull the trigger is #1.

Yes, I realize that the M&P and Glock are more reliable than other platforms. But I have to pose this question: How reliable does a gun have to be in order to be considered reliable enough for EDC?

No machine is perfect, but it needs to be reliable enough that I have confidence that it will go bang when I pull the trigger. Obviously we plan for failures in the event they happen, but I'd certainly like to minimize the time I'm fixing a problem and maximize the time I'm putting the bad guy down.

I could buy a Glock tomorrow. That would be a terrible decision for me because I hate Glocks, will never want to train with one, and thus will have to force myself to train. That isn’t going to lead to me being the best warrior I can be.

So did using the Glock 17T in class mean that you didn't get the full benefit of the experience?

Then again, I’ve always shot 1911s that adhered to either my grandfather’s or Hilton Yam’s selection/testing/and maintenance process for a 1911.

1911s are fine pistols. But keep in mind that many of those that are brought to courses are mass-produced and have had parts swapped by someone other than a qualified gunsmith. You can get away with that with Glocks and M&Ps but most 1911 stuff takes a real craftsman. They just don't plug-and-play like Glocks/M&Ps.

I also really liked Shay’s presentation of using the Sabrina method. To be quite honest, I used to mock the Sabrina method. I mean honestly, how couldn’t I? But Shay really changed my mind on this when he demonstrated its usefulness.

LOL, same here.

Shay is a mix of easy going and hard-case.

Totally spot-on.

Going to Mindset was the very first time I had actually been challenged, both on what I believed and during the final training scenario.

"Challenge" (or "testing") is an important aspect of training and one that I think is far too often overlooked. People want to learn the skills but they don't want to put them to the test.

Truly, learning to run your gun is important, but, if you haven't inoculated your brain to stress via force on force, you're kidding yourself about your readiness.

Agreed.

let Shay train your brain.

There's a T-shirt in there somewhere.

I will be signing up for the dynamic force on force scenarios ASAP.

I'm glad you got enough out of the training that you want to return. Hopefully I'll be there when you do.

Thanks again for sharing your experience.

 

[Jackson]

We’re not choosing weapons that will be shot 10,000 times a year.

Why not?

 

[Caleb]

pictures!!

 

[Aaron1776]

You'll know if you always carry and train with the same [type of] gun.

I tried that around the house for years. It simply didn't work for me. I was too tempted to fiddle with the gun, left it places, etc. Just generally a bad idea for Aaron1776,

Here's the thing-- training, and whether its boring or not, shouldn't be dependent on the gun itself. Your ultimate goal is to be a safer person, and your training should reflect that, regardless of the tools used. If you get bored it's not the gun's fault.

I totally agree with you....in theory. But it doesn't play out that way in real life with a lot of people. The reality of human nature is that we often get bored. The way I, Aaron1776, break up that boredom so that I train with my weapons more often and more effectively, is to break up that boredom with (limited) variety. Plus I'm willing to bet money that I train with any one of my two platforms far more than the majority of people who carry....and that includes the people who carry a gun for their job. Why? Because it's my hobby. Helps me blow off steam. I suspect that many people also fall into the trap of boredom, and I suspect that I will once again fall into that trap with the M&P. Boredom leads to complacency. Complacency leads to neglect. That's bad.

We'll see what happens.

IMO "likeability" should be further down the list from "reliability", which should be right up at the top when selecting a gun for defending oneself. Again, it's just a tool, not a fashion accessory. Obviously a carry gun needs to meet other important criteria (not too big/heavy, impervious to sweat, etc), but being able to send bullets when I pull the trigger is #1.


No machine is perfect, but it needs to be reliable enough that I have confidence that it will go bang when I pull the trigger. Obviously we plan for failures in the event they happen, but I'd certainly like to minimize the time I'm fixing a problem and maximize the time I'm putting the bad guy down.

I totally agree that a gun needs to be reliable first, liked second. But the idea that Glock and M&P are the only ones that fit this requirement mystifies me. I'd rather people choose a gun that has a record of reliability (XD, Beretta, etc) that they like more because they're a lot more likely to train with it.

So did using the Glock 17T in class mean that you didn't get the full benefit of the experience?

I shuddered, but I made an exception for FoF . I would've taken the 1911 if he had one.

1911s are fine pistols. But keep in mind that many of those that are brought to courses are mass-produced and have had parts swapped by someone other than a qualified gunsmith. You can get away with that with Glocks and M&Ps but most 1911 stuff takes a real craftsman. They just don't plug-and-play like Glocks/M&Ps.

This was the point I tried to make to Shay. 90% of 1911 owners buy crap or dick with their guns and muck them up. Then they wonder why they break. Plus, even with good makes (as with any gun) the firearm should be evaluated before hard use.

"Challenge" (or "testing") is an important aspect of training and one that I think is far too often overlooked. People want to learn the skills but they don't want to put them to the test.

Amen

There's a T-shirt in there somewhere.

I claim the royalties.

I'm glad you got enough out of the training that you want to return. Hopefully I'll be there when you do.

Thanks again for sharing your experience.

Thanks for your feed back!!

 

[Aaron1776]

Why not?

I stand corrected. MOST PEOPLE aren't looking for a gun that is going to be shot 10,000x a year, and it's unrealistic to expect them to.

 

[N8RV]

Freakin' excellent AAR! Kudos. It's not easy to be critical and complimentary, but you did it with class. I hope Shay appreciates your intellectually honest critique -- I know I did.

I was unsure of the true value of F on F training, but you left me wanting to sign up. I hope Mindset comps you a class for the marketing value you just gave them. :-)

Only one question: Will they blow me crap when I show up with my Sig instead of a Glock? LOL

Thanks again for a great AAR! Reps your way.

 

[chezuki]

Why not?

This.

I just bought another M&P after realizing I was already at about 5000rds through my carry gun this year.

 

[Aaron1776]

Freakin' excellent AAR! Kudos. It's not easy to be critical and complimentary, but you did it with class. I hope Shay appreciates your intellectually honest critique -- I know I did.

I was unsure of the true value of F on F training, but you left me wanting to sign up. I hope Mindset comps you a class for the marketing value you just gave them. :-)

Only one question: Will they blow me crap when I show up with my Sig instead of a Glock? LOL

Thanks again for a great AAR! Reps your way.

Thanks!

Hahaha. No they won't mind. Plus, you'll be using blue guns and converted glocks. Your Sig won't be a factor.

If you have the time and money, go ahead and do the intro class on saturday and the dynamic class on the sunday. I had to split it up due to time constraints, and now I have to wait till Sept.

90% of the stuff I learned was in the senario at the end...which I'm not allowed to talk about at all. I wish I could have done senarios all day the next day. Poo. Oh well. This gives me time in between to figure things out and train up.

This.

I just bought another M&P after realizing I was already at about 5000rds through my carry gun this year.

Haha. Jealous. You've got more money for ammo and time for shooting than I do!!!!