A question/curiosity with a moral dilemma

[88GT]

In the subject he said "moral dilemma" not "legal question." It's legal for me to be a jerk to my wife and kid, it's not moral to do so.

Lethal force should be used as an absolute last resort. You may be able to get away with killing the people legally, but would you want to live the rest of your life knowing that you killed people over some stuff?

Maybe you really believe that, or maybe it's keyboard muscle mixed with internet bravado. Either way, it wouldn't be worth taking a life over.

In my opinion.

And we know what those are like.

I know what he said. I meant what I said.

My answer had nothing to do with legalities and everything to do with justice. I have enough disregard for human life not to value those that don't value mine. I'll give someone the shirt off my back if I think it's deserving. I'll also have no moral compunction about arranging a meeting with the Creator if the situation calls for it.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

As I posted: if it's trinkets easily replaced then no, I don't want that hanging over my head. But if it's something I've worked my whole life for or something that means that I won't be able to continue to provide for myself, then I can live with it.

What value "stuff" has is entirely dependent on context.

An MRE is not worth a whole lot to me right now, but if I haven't eaten in a week and I still have to finish walking to safety then its value goes up enormously. A candy bar is worth a buck unless I've just taken a shot of insulin and have nothing else available to eat in the next few hours, then it's priceless.

I think Shibum is on the right track. I'm not sure about the legal nitty-gritty but since you asked about the morality: morally, I don't have a problem defending property with deadly force under certain circumstances. If somebody's burning down my barn, slaughtering my milk cows, attempting to burn my house down, etc., then I view that as a direct attack on me and morally, I'd have no problem terminating it with deadly force. Would I immediately skip all the intermediate levels of reasonable force to deadly force? I can't say. It would depend on the circumstances. But yeah, if i saw somebody walking off with my kid's bike, I wouldn't morally be justified in shooting them to stop it.

Now as for the legalities--that might prevent me from actually using deadly force as described above.

 

[LP1]

Meditate on your spiritual principles. If you're a Christian, I think that Jesus' answer should be abundantly clear. If you follow another belief system, it's up to you. Indiana law is not your spiritual advisor, nor should it be.

 

[emsdial911]

Are there any pigs on the farm?

I see where you're going there.

 

[tk6968]

I can think of no scenario like this that would not include that they were threat to my life. So I would have to respond accordingly. Not protecting property, protecting my self and family.

 

[CQB]

Obviously in a non-direct danger to your person/family you should seek out all legal and non lethal routes first. Assuming you've done that, anything that impedes you or your families ability to thrive is ultimately a lethally defensible act.

 

[92ThoStro]

Property?
Like I look outside and someone is smashing my car windows? Call the police, they are probably insane, safer to stay inside.
If someone is outside attacking the horses? Trying to steal them, setting them on fire, shooting them, etc. 100% would defend the horses with deadly force.
Someone trying to burn down the barn. Would defend the barn also. Insurance does not cover old barns all the way. Just the usual outdoor structure coverage like somewhere near 100K if I recall, or 90. Old barns are made from solid trees, that were chipped away with a hatchet, and even the bolts used to construct the barn are made of wood! Hundreds of thousands of dollars in lumber alone. Irreplaceable.
Spray painted the barn, and trespassing, would call the cops.

 

[Giddaltti]

Unless my life is in danger or that of someone else then we talk leathel force. Thats why I own a gun. I'll take a punch and walk away before I pull a trigger, just saying.

 

[jbombelli]

Unless my life is in danger or that of someone else then we talk leathel force. Thats why I own a gun. I'll take a punch and walk away before I pull a trigger, just saying.

You might take a punch and NOT walk away. I've seen that happen personally, with my own eyes.

Just saying.

 

[88GT]

Unless my life is in danger or that of someone else then we talk leathel force. Thats why I own a gun. I'll take a punch and walk away before I pull a trigger, just saying.

Should I have to take the punch first?

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

It depends on how important it is to YOU. If you aren't worried enough about the vandalism to go out and try to stop it, then no you shouldn't just shoot from a safe position. If you DO decide to go out and defend your property, and then experience threat of injury or death, then fire away.

You shouldn't feel intimidated into letting it go on unchecked and should attempt to stop the vandals. You have a legal and moral right to personally protect your property with reasonable force. If it then escalates into an attack on your PERSON, then deadly force is reasonable. If instead they run like schoolgirls, it's immoral to shoot them in their butts.

If you are too afraid to confront the vandals, or the property isn't valuable enough to YOU to warrant the risk, then that's your decision to make. In that circumstance then I don't think its moral to shoot.

 

[Spike_351]

Bottom line is " if it's not life threatening don't use force" you will always lose.

 

[slyton]

Everyone thanks so far for the comment and thoughts. Both Legal and moral. Please keep them coming.

 

[Hogwylde]

...........Now everyone says that objects/property is not worth a human life......................

You are under the assumption that the above statement is true. It IS NOT. You never know if someone else's life is worth a darn or not. Is Jared Loughner's life worth anything (Gabby Gifford's shooter)? Is Adam Lanza's life worth anything? Is James Holmes life worth anything (Colorado Theater shooter). Is Army Major Nidal Hasans life worth anything (Ft Hood shooter). I would say NO as would most anyone else.

There ARE some people in this world whose lives aren't worth spit and deserve to be taken out.

 

[poptab]

Time is money. If they are stealing your money or something you spent your money on they are stealing your time. We only have a limited amount of time on this earth so they in effect are stealing part of your life. How much is part of your life worth? Can you not defend part of your life with lethal force?

 

[dunk50]

As a LEO for 34 years this question is always in the mix. Fact of the matter is, banks are notorious for loosing very little in robberies. Having said that, robbery suspects are shot without hesitation and the amount of money they were trying to take is not a consideration. Whats mine is mine and yes I thought you were armed and eventually meant to do me harm. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. An d NO I am not being cavalier or macho, sometimes you have to stand up for principle and whats yours. I am not into turning the other cheek, sorry!!!!!

 

[Bunnykid68]

Read sig line

 

[Kedric]

Morally, I would have absolutely NO problem dropping the pieces of filth who were rampaging in said manner. In fact, my moral code and honor system all but requires me to do so.

I would easily be able to go to bed that night and not second guess myself or my decisions. To sleep the sleep of the just. I would have done the world a favor.

The lives of scum such as you describe aren't worth anything to me if they only use those lives to terrorize, destroy, rape, pillage, and victimize innocents.

My

 

[Gino66]

If it's not worth dying over, it's not worth killing over.

This is a way to look at it, read on for another opinion...

Sadly, I believe some people lack common sense/decency to be communicated with. You mentioned "gang" and thugary.....which when those types of people run together can be the natural outcome. They presume to have safety in numbers. To these people (read that as the gang) they will only understand force collectively. A saying that has stuck with me forever, since childhood, is "thugs either need to see the "light", or they get to feel the heat". Now, that said...if someone chooses the "heat" path to "communicate" the message of leave us alone, its probably best to do it in such a dramatic fashion that they won't soon forget. Firearms are a means to that end......but there are other ways.

Some soul searching is required, and a threshold must be established. When that line is crossed, be resolved to win. As a Marine, I prefer to not ever approach that line and abhor violence...but when it happens, especially with my family, stand the eff by ITS ON

someone "passively-agressively" attacked my family, by loosening the lug nuts on my suburban. A wheel came off while I was driving (alone). that was ugly. We fostered children at the time, and it could have been us and 7 children in there, at highway speed.....wrap your brain around that. I can relate! I have given this scenario much thought. Good luck working thru this.

 

[trip9901]

I didn't read every post on here so I may be touching on points already spoken about but I feel as if someone is destroying property and not people then deadly force shouldn't be necessary. The moment one feels like his or his family's life may be in danger then that is when you should use deadly force. A call to the local pd should be enough. Document the appearance of the vandals and take photos if you can. Laws can be hard to interperate and unless you deem it necessary then you may find yourself of the other side of what you thought was right. From what I understand (not being an atorney) unless an dwelling or vehicle is not occupied then there Is no reason to use any force. Regardless of the livelihood of ones family based on livestock and income you will find yourself on the other side of the law.

My 2¢ is to find an alternate. We don't live in 1928 anymore. It's a lot harder to justify things like this. Call the police and unless you feel like you or your family is in danger of injury or death then do not use deadly force.