9mm enough stopping power

[Glock Lover]

Unless you hit a vital organ early in the gunfight, isn't it more of a matter of blood loss and the shock of being shot that will force an attacker down?

I find that the maximum amount of shock is obtained if after I shoot them I flap my arms like a bird and laugh at them. Not sure how that technique is working for others, but I find it quite effective.

 

[antsi]

True, but there are studies that show that larger heavier bullets work better than smaller lighter bullets in the real world. Its generally true with hunting, generally true with handgun defense too. It is not gospel, but its a darn good guideline.

I agree that is often true, but it even further emphasizes my point that energy doesn't always translate into effectiveness. If energy = effectiveness, lighter faster rounds would be more effective because lighter faster rounds generally have more energy.

 

[blainepoe]

Shot placement is critical, but to say that light recoil of the 9 is an advantage is probably a gross overstatement because there is no evidence that follow up shots are going to be easier to keep on target. In fact given stress of the situation and the DAO or DA/SA triggers of most popularly used modern 9mm pistols its likely that most shots will be misses (and that can be backed up with police shooting data very very easily). There is a reason competitive shooters choose SA guns, the SA triggers are much easier to use accurately under the high stress of competition.

Competitive shooters choose SA guns because all competitive sports have a single-stack category, SA guns are easier to modify with aftermarket work/parts, they are metal guns which reduces recoil, and you get a higher power rating. You are overstating the use of .45s in competitive sports.

If "most shots will be misses", you would certainly be better off with higher capacity which 9mm gives you.

All of the common safe-action/DAO guns are available in 9mm/40/45 such as glock, xd, hk, sig, and so on. You can even get an 1911 style 9mm if you want. It is also shown that nobody notices that heavy first DA pull in the heat of battle.

Now on the other hand, when I'm at the range shooting 9mm, 40, 45, I always find the lower recoil of my 9mm helps with double-tapping and follow-up shots and of course YMMV. If recoil was a non-issue, then people would be carrying .45 caliber derringers.

I mean no disrespect; I simply disagree.
~Poe

 

[esrice]

Well while on a technical basis I agree with you, on a more colloquial level the term "knockdown power" is often substituted for the more correct term "energy" which is a measurable factor based on velocity and weight.

Yes, but it is not at all clear how energy translates into wounding effectiveness or the ability to quickly incapacitate an attacker. It can be calculated precisely, but it still doesn't tell you much about which handgun round is going to work and which one isn't.

I totally agree with you both.

 

[esrice]

most of it is a myth. however, after serving in the military and witnessing said "tests" on people, my father suggested i carry 45 auto. not because of what he read on the internet or what pictures of gelatin he saw. think about it.

Your Father carried an offensive weapon (in war time). My weapon is defensive. I need a weapon that will increase the odds of my effectively stopping an attack. The odds of me having an "incident" are slim, and I try daily to make them slimmer.

If I was going out every day knowing that I would probably have to use my weapon, I might go for the bigger bullet too. Then again I'd probably also have a rifle and lots of extra ammo.

I'm not saying the .45 is bad-- just that I don't think its THAT much better that I'm willing to give up my 16 "small" bullets for 8 "big" ones.

Thank your Father for his service.

 

[Panama]

Some excellent posts and thought provoking information!

I feel very secure with my 9mm XDm with 19 +1 and at least one extra magazine.

 

[melensdad]

Competitive shooters choose SA guns because all competitive sports have a single-stack category, SA guns are easier to modify with aftermarket work/parts, they are metal guns which reduces recoil, and you get a higher power rating. You are overstating the use of .45s in competitive sports.
~Poe

Then please explain why the 9mm double stack polymer CZ SP-01 Phantom is winning competitions, often coming in 1st and 2nd place? It a DA/SA gun. The dedicated SA CZ75 in 9mm is also very competitive in the right hands.

The trigger is a bigger issue in competition because it makes for much more consistent pulls. There are different competitions, major and minor calibers, etc. The reality is that in street shootings more bullets miss than hit and police data back that up daily. A good deal of that is stress, lack of proper training, etc. But the heavy or inconsistent triggers on many guns is certainly a contributor. Regardless of caliber.

I feel very secure with my 9mm XDm with 19 +1 and at least one extra magazine.

As would I.

 

[Jay]

My weapon is defensive

I would suggest that while a firearm is carried for defensive purposes, as soon as you employ that firearm, it is an offensive weapon.

 

[sjstill]

While I make no claims to know how the military thinks, I'd believe an issued handgun would be defensive in nature. They have better stuff for offensive weapons. I could be way off, though...

 

[cosermann]

I would suggest that while a firearm is carried for defensive purposes, as soon as you employ that firearm, it is an offensive weapon.

The best defense is a good offense (defensively deployed that is!).

 

[Lars]

<--- continues to stand by the line "Caliber wars are useless"

Also, what translates well for competition rarely translates well for daily carry....

Example, I can build a Honda Civic that'll run 9 second quarter miles.... I sure as hell don't want to drive it to work every day.

Race guns != Fighting Pistol. What makes a race gun "good" very rarely has anything to do with what makes a fighting pistol "good"

 

[melensdad]

Race guns != Fighting Pistol. What makes a race gun "good" very rarely has anything to do with what makes a fighting pistol "good"

For a true race gun I would agree with you. But we should not forget that race guns were derived from fighting pistols and fighting pistols have been improved by race guns.

The elite fighting teams (SWAT, SEALS, etc) use guns that are actually more similar to 'race' guns than they are to 'duty/fighting' guns used by the rank and file officer or serviceman. Why is it that tactical teams in many branches of the service and in many LEO agencies have switched to SA type arms? Why do so few of these teams use DAO arms? Probably for much the same reason that a competitor does . . . the ability to quickly put multiple shots on target, quickly, accurately.

Realize that many of the 'duty/fighting' gun features are there for legal and novice reasons, not for reasons that make the gun a better gun in a battle, be that battle in the 'hood or in the sandbox.

I'm not suggesting putting 2# triggers and oversized target sights on a duty gun, but there are attributes to some guns that make them better suited for both competition and for extreme duty. Caliber is not the issue. 9mm will easily get the job done if you are on target. But "IF" seems to be the biggest issue in a gunfight. How many stories do you read/hear where multiple shots were fired and NOBODY was injured, or only a small % of the shots were hits and how many of those hits were critical hits?

 

[Chefcook]

After reading this entire thread, I think the original topic was. "Is 9mm an adequate round for self defense" The answer is yes it is...

 

[CSK22]

Personally, I'll give healthy respect to ANY bullet coming my way. I am not for sure that that statement should even be responded to but I did.

I'll practice for well placed shots and go from there.

Thats what I keep saying. Some people on here keep talking like "ask anyone weather theyd want to get shot by my 9 or my 45. Well who really wants to get shot at all? I mean jeeze from my paintball days I remember half the kids being scared of those, if anyones not scared of a .25 then stand in front of it and lets see if you flinch or not. I'm not going to say a 45 isn't a better round then some of the smaller ones, but honestly, 9 or 45, shoot me with either, I'm going to leave you alone, if I even have a choice at that point (RIP)

 

[blainepoe]

Then please explain why the 9mm double stack polymer CZ SP-01 Phantom is winning competitions, often coming in 1st and 2nd place? It a DA/SA gun. The dedicated SA CZ75 in 9mm is also very competitive in the right hands.

The trigger is a bigger issue in competition because it makes for much more consistent pulls. There are different competitions, major and minor calibers, etc. The reality is that in street shootings more bullets miss than hit and police data back that up daily. A good deal of that is stress, lack of proper training, etc. But the heavy or inconsistent triggers on many guns is certainly a contributor. Regardless of caliber.

You've completely changed the subject. I'm sorry. I am done with this discussion. There is no discussing with someone who already knows it all.

For a true race gun I would agree with you. But we should not forget that race guns were derived from fighting pistols and fighting pistols have been improved by race guns.

The elite fighting teams (SWAT, SEALS, etc) use guns that are actually more similar to 'race' guns than they are to 'duty/fighting' guns used by the rank and file officer or serviceman. Why is it that tactical teams in many branches of the service and in many LEO agencies have switched to SA type arms? Why do so few of these teams use DAO arms? Probably for much the same reason that a competitor does . . . the ability to quickly put multiple shots on target, quickly, accurately.

Realize that many of the 'duty/fighting' gun features are there for legal and novice reasons, not for reasons that make the gun a better gun in a battle, be that battle in the 'hood or in the sandbox.

I'm not suggesting putting 2# triggers and oversized target sights on a duty gun, but there are attributes to some guns that make them better suited for both competition and for extreme duty. Caliber is not the issue. 9mm will easily get the job done if you are on target. But "IF" seems to be the biggest issue in a gunfight. How many stories do you read/hear where multiple shots were fired and NOBODY was injured, or only a small % of the shots were hits and how many of those hits were critical hits?

I can't tell you how many SWAT teams I've seen with open categoried "race gun" rig style sidearms. These guys use their handguns as backup and I've never seen one with an eotech, recoil compensator, enlarged magwell, etc. ...

I'm out.

 

[blainepoe]

After reading this entire thread, I think the original topic was. "Is 9mm an adequate round for self defense" The answer is yes it is...

Big Ole'

 

[melensdad]

You've completely changed the subject. I'm sorry. I am done with this discussion. There is no discussing with someone who already knows it all.

I simply was reiterating that shot placement is more important than caliber, but the discussion did skew. Look at the total context of the thread.

I can't tell you how many SWAT teams I've seen with open categoried "race gun" rig style sidearms. These guys use their handguns as backup and I've never seen one with an eotech, recoil compensator, enlarged magwell, etc. ...

I'm out.

Of course you are "out" because you, like a menstrating woman cannot see logic, and run to the wild extreme instead of sticking with common sense. Nobody suggested recoil comps, etc on duty guns, and in fact you'll notice if you actually took time to read and comprehend that I suggested not to use target sights, etc. But if you want to argue like a pissed off wife then so be it.

 

[HICKMAN]

It's funny we talk about 9mm rounds being "defensive". I don't think anyone shot by an MP5 didn't think it was effective.

Also, when we talk about military sidearms, they are the secondary weapon, behind a rifle. The military also doesn't use hollowpoints, so the arguement become mute in our conversations.

 

[HICKMAN]

I simply was reiterating that shot placement is more important than caliber, but the discussion did skew.

 

[blainepoe]

I simply was reiterating that shot placement is more important than caliber, but the discussion did skew. Look at the total context of the thread.



Of course you are "out" because you, like a menstrating woman cannot see logic, and run to the wild extreme instead of sticking with common sense. Nobody suggested recoil comps, etc on duty guns, and in fact you'll notice if you actually took time to read and comprehend that I suggested not to use target sights, etc. But if you want to argue like a pissed off wife then so be it.

WOW, you sound really mad so you must be right. .