64 year old man refuses trip to hospital, gets tasered.

[Penske]

He's an old man there was no reason to tase him give me a break I think the cop with the taser should loose his job

 

[MACHINEGUN]

He was really resisting.. good thing they got him off the streets!

 

[Joe Williams]

I have not been through formal training for tasers and never made the claim that I have. Others on here thought this officer's words and actions were cya training as well. It doesn't take a great leap of faith to draw that conclusion. Now if the cop were an ATF agent, all bets would be off, right?

Gonna try to veer off again, huh?

You were speaking with authority as to why that officer said what he said. Apparently you lack the experience to speak with such authority.

I would refer you to what I had to say about the officers in this incident. Problem is, cop bashers make it absolutely impossible to have a discussion about what went wrong, how to correct it, and how to hold such officers to task. Actual cops cannot participate in these threads, and give their input on how such situations can be better handled, because all they get in return is hatred and name calling. Such behavior is childish and, worse, counter-productive.

 

[hornadylnl]

Gonna try to veer off again, huh?

You were speaking with authority as to why that officer said what he said. Apparently you lack the experience to speak with such authority.

I would refer you to what I had to say about the officers in this incident. Problem is, cop bashers make it absolutely impossible to have a discussion about what went wrong, how to correct it, and how to hold such officers to task. Actual cops cannot participate in these threads, and give their input on how such situations can be better handled, because all they get in return is hatred and name calling. Such behavior is childish and, worse, counter-productive.

Thanks Joe, I propose a new rule that we can ONLY speak on subjects here that we have ABSOLUTE authority on.

So please tell me why this officer used the term "Stop Resisting" over and over again when he clearly wasn't? Please tell me why the taser has a video camera on it if the are only used when absolutely necessary? What amazes me is that the taser video footing wasn't somehow "lost".

 

[hornadylnl]

I understand that current law says that if a person that is suicidal can be involuntarily detained. I don't necessarily agree with that law. Let's look at this a little differently. If the 64 year old man told the paramedic "if I had a joint, I'd smoke it to kill the pain", does that give the authorities the power to search his house for drugs? The guys original statement is no more provable than the joint one.

Without audio of his actual statements and the context it was used in, it's impossible to say that the cops being called was justifiable or not. Even if it was, it is really hard to justify the use of the taser the way it was.

 

[jsgolfman]

Indefensible. Period.

 

[ATM]

I don't know about "resisting"




...looked more like he was "conducting" to me.

 

[XMil]

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Just my , I am not saying I would have done the same thing, I just ask that you dont judge someone without knowing the full story.

Sure you do. What else are all these comments about?

 

[Bill of Rights]

I understand that current law says that if a person that is suicidal can be involuntarily detained. I don't necessarily agree with that law. Let's look at this a little differently. If the 64 year old man told the paramedic "if I had a joint, I'd smoke it to kill the pain", does that give the authorities the power to search his house for drugs? The guys original statement is no more provable than the joint one.

Without audio of his actual statements and the context it was used in, it's impossible to say that the cops being called was justifiable or not. Even if it was, it is really hard to justify the use of the taser the way it was.

The problem is as rmabrey said. With him making a statement like that, our hands are tied. We are required to transport, just as we would be if we suspected child abuse on entering a home, even if not to treat the child. While you'd be correct in replying that this gentleman is not a child, he has alcohol in his system and because he does, his judgment is considered impaired.

I've run into similar situations with people who have been at the bars. Even if they are not above .08, alcohol in their system disallows them from refusing transport. I do not like that part of my medical protocols, but I have to follow it. If I cannot convince the patient to go and there is no police officer there to force the issue, my report must be painstakingly clear as to the facts, my observations, and the explanations to the patient as to the possibility of unrealized injuries. Even then it is suspect, because the question arises as to the patient's competency to understand the situation and the risks involved. He cannot give informed consent; the alcohol makes that impossible. We transport those people under implied consent.

The thing that's being forgotten here is that it is NOT the police officers nor the medics at fault for what has happened: it is our legislators. If you want police, medics, etc. to leave you alone and let you die, as public servant said recently, don't call them/us and keep your mouth shut about your intentions. Either that or contact your legislators and get the law changed such that suicide is no longer a criminal act and such that if a person does follow through with his/her desires to end his/her life, anyone else who has come in contact with him/her, unless that person has materially assisted or encouraged the process, is blameless and immune from liability, either criminal or civil.

Yeah, I know it won't happen, but da*nit, that's the job and the cards we're dealt.

Edit: I missed the part about the joint that I was also going to answer: There are many ways to kill yourself and many of those can be found in the average home. While there are many methods of using drugs also, most of those are not found in the average home. Could a case still be made for a warrant and a search? Possibly, possibly not, but if the person does get stoned, they will likely recover and be straight again. If a person commits suicide by some other method, they'll still be just as dead. That may be the reasoning, but I'm not sure of it, just throwing a guess out there.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Bill of Rights]

That is a cultural problem. As was mentioned before, the repeated "Stop Resisting" is a training thing. They are trained to say that to cover their backsides. As if merely repeating it is proof of resistance even though the video proves otherwise. I think I will try that with a super model sometime. "You will get in bed with me! You will get in bed with me!"

Is that what they told you when you went through your training?

Joe, check post #29 in this thread. Apparently that IS part of what SOME are trained to do. When I took the taser class (as a medic), nothing of this was said, so maybe it's a departmental thing.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[hornadylnl]

Joe, check post #29 in this thread. Apparently that IS part of what SOME are trained to do. When I took the taser class (as a medic), nothing of this was said, so maybe it's a departmental thing.

Blessings,
Bill

Thanks Bill.

I think Joe just wanted to take issue with me.

 

[Joe Williams]

Thanks Bill.

I think Joe just wanted to take issue with me.

Joe wants to take issue with the senseless cop bashing that's become fashionable here, so that when there is an issue it can be discussed properly, and so that cops can be held to task for things they actually do wrong. All the yapping about cops weakens real instances of abuse to the point that it's as ineffective as yelling "racism" has become... thereby making it more difficult to correct truly bad problems.

 

[hornadylnl]

Joe wants to take issue with the senseless cop bashing that's become fashionable here, so that when there is an issue it can be discussed properly, and so that cops can be held to task for things they actually do wrong. All the yapping about cops weakens real instances of abuse to the point that it's as ineffective as yelling "racism" has become... thereby making it more difficult to correct truly bad problems.

Please find in my nearly 4800 posts senseless cop bashing. Please find where I've broad brushed entire agencies like you have.

 

[Joe Williams]

Please find in my nearly 4800 posts senseless cop bashing. Please find where I've broad brushed entire agencies like you have.

Yeah, fine, whatever. You are a paragon of virtue.

 

[Prometheus]

Ok lets get back on topic.

Criminal charges should be filed against the taser happy officer. Note I didn't say it "appears".

The deputy was trespassing, as is backed up by the Judge who dismissed the homeowners resisting charges.

EVERYTHING the deputy did was a crime and he should serve time in PRISON for that tasing because of it.

Deputy #2 needs to be fired, at a minimum, not just for trespassing but also for failing to stop the illegal, criminal assault and battery by the tasing deputy.

 

[RichardR]

Ok lets get back on topic.

Criminal charges should be filed against the taser happy officer. Note I didn't say it "appears".

The deputy was trespassing, as is backed up by the Judge who dismissed the homeowners resisting charges.

EVERYTHING the deputy did was a crime and he should serve time in PRISON for that tasing because of it.

Deputy #2 needs to be fired, at a minimum, not just for trespassing but also for failing to stop the illegal, criminal assault and battery by the tasing deputy.

As harsh as the above sounds, I am inclined to agree.

Criminal acts committed by LEO's should be prosecuted, just as if one of us had walked uninvited into that mans house & physically assaulted him.

As far as I am aware the homeowner was not suspected of violating any legal statute, thus the "law enforcement" officers had no legal authority to intervene in this particular instance.

 

[hornadylnl]

Nobody has addressed a question I had earlier. If the man said "If I had a joint, I would smoke it to kill the pain", what would happen? Could the EMT's call the police and they search your house without a warrant? That is a little different in that the joint wouldn't be a threat unto himself like a suicide threat was. Without actual audio of the situation, it's impossible to say whether they should have never been called or not. I don't know if he laughingly said "If I had a gun I'd kill myself" or if he was distraught and depressed. It would be interesting to hear the testimony of the EMT who called the police. Did he merely call to cover his rear or did he genuinely feel like the guy was a threat to himself.

 

[Rocky1927]

Having both a brother and a friend who have entered law enforcement I must admit that the badge changed them both, and not for the better. From one week to the next it was possible to see the changes in their attitudes toward "non-cops". Everyone became a suspect. Every person was "up to something". The badge gave them, at least in their own minds, the authority to do pretty much anything they wanted as long as they could justify it with some kind of "Reasonable Suspicion".
This seems to be more and more common these days. It seems it is no longer about serving the public but stoking ones' own sense of power over others. Both of these men were "nice guys".
It's as if they are being trained to despise the very people they are supposed to serve. Maybe it IS a training issue. If so, then the program needs some adjustment.If not, then we need to screen police applicants alot more carefully. We are turning out too many out of control officers.
I will now climb down off of my soap box.