.40s&w vs 9mm

[Larryjr]

That is great info gglass. where did you find those charts?

 

[cce1302]

How is the temporary cavity not relevant? The temporary cavity is what does the majority of the damage to the organs, blood vessels, basically everything but bone.

You can't just make things up. Read this: http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
It's an easy read, and actually the first thing that popped up when I searched "temporary wound cavity handgun." Do you have any papers that disagree? Please don't use wiki in your response.

Actually there is inherent differences in handgun caliber accuracy, generally these differences do not matter because there is not enough distance to the target to make it noticeable. But once again I was not referring to inherent differences, I was referring to shooter ability and the different feel one gets from a different caliber. And we wouldn't discuss rifles here, which is why I put the smiley. Just trying to keep this a debate not people getting mad.

I'd like to see your evidence on inherent differences in handgun caliber accuracy. If you'll post it in a new thread and send me a link, I'll read what you have to offer.

 

[Glock Lover]

I think me and a few hundred law enforcement agencies would disagree.

I'm law enforcement and say it as worthless. Not wanting a huge debate just expressing my thoughts on subject. I think law enforcement jumped on a band wagon, as they many times do. With research you will see that many law enforcement agencies (at least the ones that i deal with on a regular basis) are beginning to go back to either .45 or 9mm.
I've had just about every semi-auto pistol on the market in all three calibers and eventually realized that .40 is worthless. It's recoil is ridiculous compared to the the 9mm and the .45. The way it twists on recoil. I think it's a silly round because it attempts to combine two rounds that don't need combined. I love 9mm but have .45 as a duty weapon (because thats what department says I need to do). If you want a big round you want .45; if you want a lighter recoil, higher capacity, cheaper etc go with 9mm. If you can't make up your mind go with .40, and then you'll end up with less round than 9mm and less size than .45. Make up your mind what you want and go with it. Just never liked .40 and never will.

 

[GhostofWinter]

Let's see if I can answer the two folks that stated that I was wrong. PLEASE show me actual evidence that the 9mm is an inferior round. Show me the evidence to back your opinions up. I have seen but can't find it right now, but I have seen a side by side test of 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP and all three had similar penetration and temporary cavities. Also the comment about the losing side's panzers and helmets. If I am not mistaken hasn't the US military go to the identical design of helmets as the old german ones from WWII?? Yep. In FACT I have heard that the reason we didn't adopt the same design back then was to avoid confusion. As for the panzer tanks they WERE technically superior to anything the rest of the world could produce at the time. Their downfall was that they were hard to build and difficult to maintain. Ever hear of a sherman taking multiple hits from a german panzer and surviving? The same can be said for panzers. on numerous occasions.

Greg

 

[STEEL CORE]

I have both, I enjoy both, would choose the .40 over the 9mm in SHTF situation(s). Other than that, they are about the same.

 

[zcam630]

I love both rounds. Because the 9 is smaller I carry a 9 for comfort. I keep the 40 by my bed at night in always near me in the house for comfort. The 9 is cheaper to shoot (around here there are several walmarts carrying the Federal brand - box of 50 for $9.47).

WOW, I can't even find 9mm at our Walmart. They do have the .40 @ $13.?? for a box of 50.

Of course I think it is all the INGO members raiding the Noblesville Walmart and getting all the ammo.

 

[Indy317]

When a person is shot, there are various injuries that may or may not take place. For sure, any decent bullet is going to put a hole in the skin. That is the first injury. Unless the person gets medical attention, that bullet wound will likely cause them to bleed out, get infected, or in rare cases, may actually heal itself. Of course the bullet remains in the body, who knows what it will do.

After the skin wound, the next thing is what the bullet actually hits. If it hits an artery, the person could likely bleed out quicker than if it doesn't. If it hits the nerves in the spine, it could put the person in a wheel chair for life. If it hits a bone, it could cause lose of use for that bone and others connected to it.

Since the goal is to stop the attack, to prevent injury to you or your loved ones, one needs to look at what is most likely to cause enough various damage to stop the attack. In reality, bullets are not the best stoppers, but they are the most efficient given the technology we have available. I have yet to see anyone fight through a good hit with a Taser. Everyone I have spoken with says as long as the power is flowing to the person's body, they can't do anything. Plenty of people however can and have fought through being shot numerous times, because 9mm pieces of lead, .40 inch pieces of lead, etc. affect only a small part of the entire body. However, Tasers are too limited at this time to be 100% reliable for self-defense, mostly due to their limited range and capacity (even with the new three shot semi-auto model).

So, with bullets, we need to hit areas of the body that will cause someone to stop what they are doing. As long as a bullet can enter the body, it really won't matter if it is a 9mm, .40S&W, or .45...it will depend on what those pieces of lead hit. However, some bullets will produce a bigger shock wave than others. This can also help in stopping a human or animal. The bigger the shock wave, the more likely the shock wave itself could cause damage internally, though I am not sure how much damage bullet shock waves can cause inside the body. Even if the shock wave can't cause injury to internal organs, veins, and arteries, it still might be enough to knock someone to the ground. One thing I recalled about Black Talons was a Chicago ER doctor who stated that they were the worst hollow points because the tips often broke off once inside the body. He said the small pieces would then become their own mini-bullets, spreading out from the main bullet. He stated that a non-fatal wound from the main bullet could end up fatal when one of these pieces broke off and pierced the heart or a major blood vessel. Not sure if this is really that accurate, as the magazine story had a big anti-gun bent, but this Dr. identified himself and his hospital, so he should be able to back-up what he said with documented cases.

So, does anyone know if bullet shock waves really have that much impact on the human body?

 

[jpo117]

So, does anyone know if bullet shock waves really have that much impact on the human body?

I'm useless at ballistics, but I've read a lot of people who aren't say that bullets from a handgun round don't travel fast enough to cause a tissue-damaging shock wave; that's one of the reasons why rifles are better weapons ("I carry a handgun because I can't carry a rifle" and all that). I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[kingnereli]

Let's see if I can answer the two folks that stated that I was wrong. PLEASE show me actual evidence that the 9mm is an inferior round. Show me the evidence to back your opinions up. I have seen but can't find it right now, but I have seen a side by side test of 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP and all three had similar penetration and temporary cavities. Also the comment about the losing side's panzers and helmets. If I am not mistaken hasn't the US military go to the identical design of helmets as the old german ones from WWII?? Yep. In FACT I have heard that the reason we didn't adopt the same design back then was to avoid confusion. As for the panzer tanks they WERE technically superior to anything the rest of the world could produce at the time. Their downfall was that they were hard to build and difficult to maintain. Ever hear of a sherman taking multiple hits from a german panzer and surviving? The same can be said for panzers. on numerous occasions.

Greg

First of all, ballistics is not an exact science. There is a plethora of numbers and calculations involved but unless we can test various bullet performance along precisely the same path through exactly the same density of flesh, muscle, bone the results are just rough, but usable, comparison. The closest thing we have to this is rated ballistic gelatin (which is not the same thing as human flesh but is a consistent medium for comparison) and empirical, anecdotal evidence. (more on that later.) As far as references, you should study the FBI ballistic tests as well as the information available at firearmstactical.com.

Here is a quick sample of the FBI data:


9x19 Win Ranger Talon|147@ 864, 18.1 mv, 243 E|BR 13.8", 0.61", 4.03cu|CL 15.2", 0.59", 4.17cu|avg 4.10, 2.72 re, 1.51

9x19 Win Ranger Talon|147@1017, 21.4 mv, 337 E|BR 13.8", 0.66", 4.70cu|CL 15.5", 0.65", 5.14cu|avg 4.92, 3.77 re, 1.31

9x19 Win Ranger +P+ |115@1320, 21.7 mv, 444 E|BR 9.6", 0.53", 2.11cu|CL 10.2", 0.65", 3.37cu|avg 2.74, 3.89 re, 0.70

9x19 3-D |115@1178, 19.4 mv, 354 E|BR 11.6", 0.54", 2.66cu|CL 13.9", 0.48", 2.52cu|avg 2.59, 3.10 re, 0.84

9x19 Rem +P+ |115@1221, 20.1 mv, 380 E|BR 10.8", 0.63", 3.37cu|CL 10.9", 0.62", 3.29cu|avg 3.33, 3.33 re, 1.00

9x19 CCI/Speer GD |115@1259, 20.7 mv, 404 E|BR 12.3", 0.67", 4.35cu|CL 22.1", 0.40", 2.78cu|avg 3.43, 3.54 re, 0.97

9x19 CCI/Speer GD |115@1197, 19.7 mv, 365 E|BR 12.8", 0.67", 4.51cu|CL 22.6", 0.44", 3.44cu|avg 3.78, 3.20 re, 1.18

9x19 CorBon +P |115@1317, 21.6 mv, 442 E|BR 8.9", 0.52", 1.90cu|CL 10.2", 0.61", 2.98cu|avg 2.44, 3.87 re, 0.63

9x19 Fed +P |115@1237, 20.3 mv, 390 E|BR 11.2", 0.53", 2.48cu|CL 10.6", 0.62", 3.20cu|avg 2.84, 3.41 re, 0.83

9x19 Fed Silvertip |115@1091, 17.9 mv, 304 E|BR 10.1", 0.63", 3.13cu|CL 11.8", 0.58", 3.12cu|avg 3.13, 2.66 re, 1.18

9x19 CCI/Speer GD +P |124@1223, 21.7 mv, 411 E|BR 13.4", 0.68", 4.87cu|CL 20.2", 0.53", 4.47cu|avg 4.64, 3.88 re, 1.20

9x19 CCI/Speer GD |124@1116, 19.8 mv, 342 E|BR 11.8", 0.69", 4.41cu|CL 22.0", 0.36", 2.24cu|avg 3.22, 3.23 re, 1.00

9x19 Rem |124@1109, 19.6 mv, 338 E|BR 12.4", 0.60", 3.52cu|CL 13.7", 0.57", 3.50cu|avg 3.51, 3.19 re, 1.10

9x19 PMC/Eldorado SF |124@1118, 19.8 mv, 344 E|BR 10.7", 0.63", 3.32cu|CL 20.1", 0.41", 2.65cu|avg 2.98, 3.24 re, 0.92

9x19 CorBon XTP |124@1123, 19.9 mv, 347 E|BR 13.9", 0.56", 3.44cu|CL 18.3", 0.46", 3.04cu|avg 3.24, 3.27 re, 0.99

9x19 Fed HydraShok |147@ 935, 19.6 mv, 285 E|BR 13.6", 0.60", 3.85cu|CL 16.1", 0.52", 3.41cu|avg 3.63, 3.19 re, 1.14

9x19 Win Black Talon |147@ 946, 19.9 mv, 292 E|BR 14.8", 0.60", 4.20cu|CL 16.4", 0.61", 4.78cu|avg 4.49, 3.26 re, 1.38

9x19 Rem |147@ 987, 20.7 mv, 318 E|BR 18.1", 0.51", 3.71cu|CL 15.9", 0.59", 4.36cu|avg 4.03, 3.55 re, 1.14

9x19 Hornady XTP |147@ 918, 19.3 mv, 275 E|BR 22.1", 0.44", 3.36cu|CL 20.5", 0.46", 3.41cu|avg 3.18, 3.07 re, 1.04

9x19 Fed HydraShok |147@ 995, 20.9 mv, 323 E|BR 21.4", 0.37", 2.30cu|CL 15.6", 0.60", 4.41cu|avg 3.28, 3.61 re, 0.91

9x19 Win Silvertip |147@ 902, 18.9 mv, 265 E|BR 14.6", 0.53", 3.22cu|CL 18.1", 0.47", 3.14cu|avg 3.18, 2.97 re, 1.07

9x19 CCI/Speer GD+P |124@1155, 20.5 mv, 367 E|BR 13.2", 0.62", 3.99cu|CL 16.1", 0.53", 3.55cu|avg 3.77, 3.46 re, 1.09

9x19 CCI/Speer GD |124@1068, 18.9 mv, 314 E|BR 12.6", 0.59", 3.44cu|CL 17.5", 0.51", 3.57cu|avg 3.51, 2.96 re, 1.19

9x19 CCI/Speer GD |147@ 924, 19.4 mv, 278 E|BR 14.8", 0.57", 3.78cu|CL 14.7", 0.55", 3.49cu|avg 3.63, 3.11 re, 1.17

9x19 Win Ranger PG |124@1015, 18.0 mv, 283 E|BR 12.5", 0.65", 4.15cu|CL 14.0", 0.61", 4.09cu|avg 4.12, 2.67 re, 1.54

9x19 Win Ranger T |147@1016, 21.3 mv, 337 E|BR 13.8", 0.66", 4.72cu|CL 15.7", 0.00", 0.00cu|avg 2.36, 3.76 re, 0.63

357SIG CCI/Speer GD |125@1372, 24.5 mv, 522 E|BR 16.1", 0.60", 4.54cu|CL 19.1", 0.54", 4.36cu|avg 4.45, 4.96 re, 0.90

40SW Win Ranger Talon|180@1000, 25.7 mv, 399 E|BR 13.6", 0.68", 4.92cu|CL 13.5", 0.68", 4.90cu|avg 4.91, 5.47 re, 0.90

40SW CCI/Speer GD |155@1176, 26.0 mv, 475 E|BR 10.7", 0.84", 5.93cu|CL 18.1", 0.57", 4.62cu|avg 5.27, 5.61 re, 0.94

40SW CCI/Speer GD |155@1186, 26.3 mv, 483 E|BR 10.7", 0.84", 5.93cu|CL 17.7", 0.58", 4.68cu|avg 5.30, 5.70 re, 0.93

40SW Hornady XTP |155@1194, 26.4 mv, 490 E|BR 14.5", 0.65", 4.81cu|CL 18.1", 0.55", 4.30cu|avg 4.56, 5.78 re, 0.79

40SW Win Silvertip |155@1199, 26.5 mv, 494 E|BR 12.2", 0.69", 4.54cu|CL 13.2", 0.71", 5.21cu|avg 4.87, 5.83 re, 0.84

40SW Fed Hi-Shok |155@1167, 25.8 mv, 468 E|BR 13.8", 0.61", 4.02cu|CL 19.5", 0.51", 3.98cu|avg 4.00, 5.52 re, 0.72

40SW CCI/Speer GD |165@1076, 25.4 mv, 424 E|BR 13.1", 0.65", 4.33cu|CL 15.8", 0.60", 4.47cu|avg 4.40, 5.32 re, 0.83

40SW Fed HydraShok |165@1007, 23.7 mv, 371 E|BR 13.8", 0.62", 4.18cu|CL 15.2", 0.64", 4.87cu|avg 4.53, 4.66 re, 0.97

40SW Rem |165@1031, 24.3 mv, 389 E|BR 12.5", 0.67", 4.41cu|CL 16.3", 0.61", 4.76cu|avg 4.59, 4.88 re, 0.94

40SW Fed HydeaShok |165@ 931, 21.9 mv, 317 E|BR 15.8", 0.58", 4.19cu|CL 21.1", 0.43", 3.06cu|avg 3.55, 3.98 re, 0.89

40SW Rem G.S. |165@ 952, 22.4 mv, 332 E|BR 13.1", 0.64", 4.21cu|CL 20.0", 0.53", 4.41cu|avg 4.31, 4.16 re, 1.04

40SW Rem G.S. |165@1022, 24.1 mv, 382 E|BR 14.8", 0.65", 4.89cu|CL 14.3", 0.66", 4.91cu|avg 4.90, 4.80 re, 1.02

40SW Fed HydraShok |165@ 943, 22.2 mv, 325 E|BR 18.2", 0.63", 5.69cu|CL 19.4", 0.56", 4.77cu|avg 5.23, 4.08 re, 1.28

40SW Win Ranger T. |180@ 947, 24.4 mv, 358 E|BR 13.8", 0.69", 5.14cu|CL 13.7", 0.70", 5.25cu|avg 5.20, 4.90 re, 1.06

40SW CCI/Speer GD |180@ 982, 25.3 mv, 385 E|BR 14.5", 0.59", 3.96cu|CL 17.6", 0.60", 4.96cu|avg 4.46, 5.27 re, 0.85

40SW Rem G.S. |180@ 931, 23.9 mv, 346 E|BR 16.8", 0.69", 6.28cu|CL 16.9", 0.63", 5.28cu|avg 5.78, 4.74 re, 1.22

40SW Rem G.S. |180@ 945, 24.3 mv, 356 E|BR 16.9", 0.64", 5.44cu|CL 21.0", 0.43", 3.05cu|avg 4.17, 4.88 re, 0.85

40SW Rem G.S. |180@ 893, 23.0 mv, 318 E|BR 15.7", 0.65", 5.19cu|CL 21.1", 0.51", 4.32cu|avg 4.64, 4.36 re, 1.06

40SW CCI/Speer GD |180@ 958, 24.6 mv, 366 E|BR 14.6", 0.60", 4.13cu|CL 17.1", 0.62", 5.16cu|avg 4.65, 5.02 re, 0.93

40SW Rem G.S. |180@ 954, 24.5 mv, 363 E|BR 14.8", 0.66", 5.06cu|CL 14.8", 0.67", 5.20cu|avg 5.13, 4.98 re, 1.03

40SW Win B.T. |180@ 917, 23.6 mv, 336 E|BR 13.5", 0.69", 5.05cu|CL 14.4", 0.70", 5.54cu|avg 5.29, 4.60 re, 1.15

40SW Hornady XTP |180@ 929, 23.9 mv, 345 E|BR 13.9", 0.64", 4.49cu|CL 18.4", 0.55", 4.38cu|avg 4.44, 4.72 re, 0.94

40SW Fed HydraShok |180@ 969, 24.9 mv, 375 E|BR 14.2", 0.69", 5.29cu|CL 19.8", 0.59", 5.41cu|avg 5.35, 5.13 re, 1.04

40SW Fed Hi-Shok |180@ 960, 24.7 mv, 368 E|BR 14.8", 0.66", 5.05cu|CL 24.0", 0.47", 4.16cu|avg 4.26, 5.04 re, 0.85

40SW Win Ranger SXT |180@ 905, 23.3 mv, 327 E|BR 11.2", 0.70", 4.31cu|CL 13.0", 0.64", 4.18cu|avg 4.25, 4.48 re, 0.95

40SW Win Ranger PG |165@1109, 26.1 mv, 450 E|BR 13.1", 0.73", 5.48cu|CL 14.5", 0.72", 5.90cu|avg 5.69, 5.65 re, 1.01

40SW Win Ranger T |180@ 943, 24.2 mv, 355 E|BR 13.6", 0.68", 4.94cu|CL 14.6", 0.70", 5.62cu|avg 5.28, 4.86 re, 1.09

45ACP CCI/Speer GD |185@1041, 27.5 mv, 445 E|BR 11.9", 0.68", 4.34cu|CL 14.8", 0.68", 5.36cu|avg 4.85, 6.26 re, 0.77

45ACP Rem G.S. |185@1037, 27.4 mv, 441 E|BR 14.4", 0.72", 5.86cu|CL 15.9", 0.68", 5.79cu|avg 5.83, 6.21 re, 0.94

45ACP Rem G.S. +P |185@1046, 27.6 mv, 449 E|BR 10.1", 0.87", 6.00cu|CL 9.5", 0.81", 4.90cu|avg 5.45, 6.32 re, 0.86

45ACP Fed Hi-Shok |185@ 874, 23.1 mv, 313 E|BR 11.7", 0.74", 5.03cu|CL 19.8", 0.61", 5.79cu|avg 5.41, 4.41 re, 1.23

45ACP Win Silvertip |185@ 951, 25.1 mv, 371 E|BR 10.7", 0.78", 5.11cu|CL 10.9", 0.73", 4.56cu|avg 4.84, 5.22 re, 0.93

45ACP Fed Hi-Shok |185@ 953, 25.2 mv, 373 E|BR 13.3", 0.63", 4.15cu|CL 12.4", 0.74", 5.33cu|avg 4.74, 5.24 re, 0.90

45ACP Rem |185@ 903, 23.9 mv, 335 E|BR 16.2", 0.70", 6.23cu|CL 24.6", 0.55", 5.83cu|avg 5.49, 4.71 re, 1.17

45ACP CCI/Speer GD +P |200@1062, 30.3 mv, 500 E|BR 11.7", 0.75", 5.17cu|CL 18.8", 0.55", 4.47cu|avg 4.82, 7.61 re, 0.63

45ACP Fed HydraShok |230@ 956, 31.4 mv, 466 E|BR 13.8", 0.72", 5.64cu|CL 13.6", 0.74", 5.83cu|avg 5.73, 8.16 re, 0.70

45ACP Fed HydraShok |230@ 878, 28.8 mv, 393 E|BR 16.6", 0.66", 5.66cu|CL 20.2", 0.55", 4.80cu|avg 5.21, 6.88 re, 0.76

45ACP Fed HydraShok |230@ 858, 28.2 mv, 375 E|BR 13.7", 0.71", 5.42cu|CL 16.4", 0.66", 5.59cu|avg 5.51, 6.57 re, 0.84

45ACP Win |230@ 802, 26.4 mv, 328 E|BR 17.9", 0.60", 5.06cu|CL 24.0", 0.51", 4.90cu|avg 4.57, 5.74 re, 0.80

45ACP Fed HydraShok |230@ 854, 28.1 mv, 372 E|BR 14.9", 0.71", 5.90cu|CL 15.4", 0.64", 4.97cu|avg 5.43, 6.51 re, 0.83

45ACP Rem G.S. |230@ 885, 29.1 mv, 399 E|BR 14.1", 0.76", 6.37cu|CL 16.6", 0.69", 6.19cu|avg 6.28, 6.99 re, 0.90

45ACP Win Ranger SXT |230@ 819, 26.9 mv, 342 E|BR 13.2", 0.73", 5.55cu|CL 17.9", 0.63", 5.56cu|avg 5.55, 5.99 re, 0.93

45ACP CCI/Speer GD |230@ 896, 29.4 mv, 409 E|BR 16.0", 0.69", 5.98cu|CL 18.9", 0.59", 5.17cu|avg 5.58, 7.17 re, 0.78

45ACP PMC/Eldorado SF |230@ 853, 28.0 mv, 371 E|BR 13.9", 0.67", 4.90cu|CL 22.6", 0.45", 3.59cu|avg 4.04, 6.49 re, 0.62

45ACP Rem G.S. |230@ 871, 28.6 mv, 387 E|BR 15.0", 0.71", 5.94cu|CL 18.9", 0.73", 7.89cu|avg 6.91, 6.77 re, 1.02

45ACP CCI/Speer GD |230@ 847, 27.8 mv, 366 E|BR 13.2", 0.74", 5.66cu|CL 14.3", 0.70", 5.50cu|avg 5.58, 6.40 re, 0.87

45ACP Fed Hi-Shok |230@ 860, 28.3 mv, 377 E|BR 13.8", 0.80", 6.96cu|CL 17.4", 0.67", 6.13cu|avg 6.55, 6.60 re, 0.99

45ACP Win. B.T. |230@ 886, 29.1 mv, 400 E|BR 11.9", 0.77", 5.56cu|CL 13.9", 0.74", 6.00cu|avg 5.78, 7.01 re, 0.83

10mm Norma |170@1358, 33.0 mv, 695 E|BR 16.6", 0.59", 4.52cu|CL 17.0", 0.63", 5.30cu|avg 4.91, 8.99 re, 0.55

10mm CCI/Speer PHP |180@ 992, 25.5 mv, 393 E|BR 15.8", 0.72", 6.44cu|CL 17.5", 0.61", 5.11cu|avg 5.78, 5.38 re, 1.07

10mm Win Black Talon |200@ 901, 25.7 mv, 360 E|BR 13.9", 0.67", 4.90cu|CL 15.6", 0.67", 5.50cu|avg 5.20, 5.48 re, 0.95

10mm Hornady XTP |200@1056, 30.2 mv, 495 E|BR 21.4", 0.58", 5.65cu|CL 24.1", 0.52", 5.13cu|avg 4.77, 7.53 re, 0.63

357MAG Rem G.S. |125@1220, 21.8 mv, 413 E|BR 14.4", 0.56", 3.55cu|CL 20.6", 0.48", 3.72cu|avg 3.58, 3.92 re, 0.91

357MAG Fed JHP |125@1265, 22.6 mv, 444 E|BR 10.7", 0.49", 2.01cu|CL 11.8", 0.51", 2.40cu|avg 2.20, 4.22 re, 0.52

357MAG Win Silvertip |145@1166, 24.2 mv, 437 E|BR 15.8", 0.58", 4.17cu|CL 12.9", 0.64", 4.15cu|avg 4.16, 4.82 re, 0.86

357MAG Fed JHP |158@1200, 27.1 mv, 505 E|BR 16.5", 0.50", 3.24cu|CL 15.9", 0.64", 5.12cu|avg 4.18, 6.07 re, 0.69

.380 Win Silvertip | 85@ 954, 11.6 mv, 172 E|BR 7.9", 0.58", 2.09cu|CL 9.1", 0.47", 1.58cu|avg 1.83, 1.11 re, 1.65

.380 CCI/Speer GD | 88@ 914, 11.5 mv, 163 E|BR 11.6", 0.46", 1.92cu|CL 17.2", 0.35", 1.66cu|avg 1.79, 1.09 re, 1.64

.380 CCI/Speer GD | 90@ 934, 12.0 mv, 174 E|BR 9.3", 0.59", 2.54cu|CL 11.3", 0.49", 2.14cu|avg 2.34, 1.19 re, 1.96

.380 Fed HydraShok | 90@ 971, 12.5 mv, 188 E|BR 6.7", 0.66", 2.29cu|CL 12.0", 0.49", 2.26cu|avg 2.28, 1.29 re, 1.77

Also there is a philosophy of importance that needs to be understood. The most important thing a bullet needs to do is penetrate to vital organs. Secondly it needs to get as much blood out as possible in the shortest amount of time. In other words, it needs to make a big hole. Here is an article to that effect. It is 19 pages so it's a little bit of reading but well worth it.

FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness - FirearmsTactical.com

Penetration:

This is where 9mm starts to fail. While modern bullet design has greatly reduced the disparity between calibers there is still a problem of consistency. Even if we just take the FBI tests into consideration most of the 9mm were in the 9-13 inch range. That is either less then or barely enough to meet the 12" requirement. But, in general, 9mm is all over the board with penetration. Some of the loads penetrated over 20 inches while others completely failed the penetration test. Conclusion; choose your 9mm load carefully. You may get some that do their job or you may not. Notice that the .40 had no loads under 12" and .45acp two. The two .45s were 185 grain which is rarely, if ever, recommended for self defense use. One was the remington golden saber and the other was the winchester silvertip ( the latter having an abysmal track record in any caliber or load.) The slower .45 needs the extra mass. (230gr.)

Expansion, wound cavity, BIG HOLE:

Here I feel that I need to give the shot placement disclaimer. Shot placement should be assumed when talking ballistics but it so often is not and is instead used as a wash to negate the argument with a blanket statement. If you put a few bullets through the heart and head it won't much matter what they are. Good luck and you better practice. I hope that if any of us are in an actual situation where we have to use a firearm to defend ourself that we can do just that. However, It is unlikely in a real scenario. Especially for those of us that don't have significant combat experience. We need to leave room to talk about peripheral, less then optimal hits and bleeding out rather then spinal cord, brain pan and pelvic girdle hits that are likely sure things.

The time it takes for an aggressor to bleed out is enough time for them to kill you. Increasing the volume of blood loss works in your favor. In order to do that we have to make the hole bigger. Considering the 2mm difference between 9mm and .45acp one might the that is a negligible amount. I say 2mm is still .2mm bigger and I'll take whatever I can get if it is something that may save my life. Also, many people fail to consider the effects of cross sectional density on expansion. That size disparity increases with expansion. 9mm usually expands to the .50" to .6" range and sometimes up to .65 inches. .45acp usually expands to the .65" to .75" range and sometime upwards of .80 inches. So, upon expansion, the size difference can double.

Anecdotal evidence:
This type of evidence is often quickly discarded because there are no real constants and it is difficult to compare one to another. It has also been poorly done on several occasions. The use of terms such as "one shot stop", "knockdown power", "street effectiveness", "energy dump" and others just muddy the waters and only serve to make sure gun writers have something to write about. However, some of it is noteworthy when it is simply viewed as it is; anecdotal. Most of the caliber changes in military and law enforcement have been the result of .38/9mm size bullets being ineffective. Two of the most notable are the conflict with the Moro people in the Philippines at the turn of the 20th century where our troops where forced to go back to their .45 revolvers and the 1986 Miami shootout where one assailant took 12 .38/9mm rounds before expiring and the other 6 shots. It just isn't terribly uncommon to see 9mm bounce off someone's ribs or the like without having any significant result. This scenario is much less likely with .40 S&W and .45ACP.

I used the word "marginal" for a reason. It is a round that can be considered trustworthy but it is right on the line. All handgun calibers are "wimpy." Thus, the necessity to choose the most effective available. If we are forced, out of convenience, to trust our lives to "wimpy" calibers it is wise to not settle for one that can do the job but to choose what will do it best. While the effectiveness of 9mm is, and will continue to be, debated there are few proponents to say that 9mm is best for the job.

 

[kingnereli]

I am curious to the origin of this photo. Every time a caliber discussion comes up and someone wants to make the argument that all calibers are the same they post this exact picture. It is all over the place. This picture doesn't accurately reflect actual tests. It looks like a case of someone creating a fancy picture to suit their preconceived opinions. Regardless, it doesn't do anything to prove its intended point.

 

[cjacobs]

There really is very little difference in performace between any of the common defensive pistol calibers. What is more important is how well you can shoot the one you choose to carry. As long as your gun is reliable and you can hit with it, spend your time practicing and less time being concerned about the caliper.

 

[cce1302]

Let's see if I can answer the two folks that stated that I was wrong. PLEASE show me actual evidence that the 9mm is an inferior round. Show me the evidence to back your opinions up. I have seen but can't find it right now, but I have seen a side by side test of 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP and all three had similar penetration and temporary cavities.

I didn't say that 9mm was inferior, I said that your evicence-that germans used it in WWII- held no water.

Also the comment about the losing side's panzers and helmets. If I am not mistaken hasn't the US military go to the identical design of helmets as the old german ones from WWII?? Yep. In FACT I have heard that the reason we didn't adopt the same design back then was to avoid confusion.

You are mistaken. You can't just make things up. The military uses kevlar helmets, as you can see from my avatar.

As for the panzer tanks they WERE technically superior to anything the rest of the world could produce at the time. Their downfall was that they were hard to build and difficult to maintain. Ever hear of a sherman taking multiple hits from a german panzer and surviving? The same can be said for panzers. on numerous occasions.

Greg

My point is that panzer tanks and steel helmets are obsolete now, even though the german army used them in WWII, making your argument that "the german army used 9mm in WWII, so it must be the best caliber" worthless. I wouldn't drive a panzer against a modern M1 tank any sooner than I would carry a wwii german 9mm pistol against a modern .40 S&W pistol, such as an XD40.

 

[Larryjr]

WOW, I can't even find 9mm at our Walmart. They do have the .40 @ $13.?? for a box of 50.

Of course I think it is all the INGO members raiding the Noblesville Walmart and getting all the ammo.

They're not easy to find but I drive a lot and have found the 9 round in Muncie, Lafayette and Ft. Wayne (Ohio locations too). Happy hunting!

 

[cce1302]

I'm law enforcement and say it as worthless. Not wanting a huge debate just expressing my thoughts on subject.

because you have nothing to back up your opinion?

I think law enforcement jumped on a band wagon, as they many times do. With research you will see that many law enforcement agencies (at least the ones that i deal with on a regular basis) are beginning to go back to either .45 or 9mm.

by that measure, you can add to your list of worthless calibers: 10mm, .357 magnum, 9mm, .357 sig, .45 acp, .38 spl, .45 colt, because at one time, many police departments used those calibers, but they carry a different caliber now.

I've had just about every semi-auto pistol on the market in all three calibers and eventually realized that .40 is worthless. It's recoil is ridiculous compared to the the 9mm and the .45. The way it twists on recoil. I think it's a silly round because it attempts to combine two rounds that don't need combined. I love 9mm but have .45 as a duty weapon (because thats what department says I need to do). If you want a big round you want .45; if you want a lighter recoil, higher capacity, cheaper etc go with 9mm. If you can't make up your mind go with .40, and then you'll end up with less round than 9mm and less size than .45. Make up your mind what you want and go with it. Just never liked .40 and never will.

that's a lot of opinion there. Not much else.

 

[jforrest]

Well I read the article on firearmstactical, and will admit the temporary cavity probably isn't as big a factor as I initially thought. I think even with a pistol it will do some damage, to what degree I don't know and no one really does. Ballistic science is a hard subject to calculate, its not like people will willingly step in front of a bullet for science.

This article brought up a few good points about most shootings. The first, only one or two solid torso hits are present (6th page 3rd paragraph). I think this shows you need to make a wise ammunition selection. Sure caliber is important, but whatever caliber you chose (given we are talking about 9mm vs. .40) isn't as important as the ammunition you decide to put through the pipe. Secondly, pass through shots due to "over penetration" are exaggerated as he puts it (page 15 paragraph 2). I always kinda assumed this would be the case, logically thinking a bullet that generally penetrates 12 - 14 inches will not have much left after going through even 10 inches of flesh. Finally, "knock-down-power", its obvious from physics, to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. I felt those were all good points he brought up that I would emphasize.

So in short thanks cce1302 for setting me straight. Things I have heard and read before weren't based on facts like a thought they were, as well as pistols not having the kinetic energy to completely destroy tissue. I'll change my stand to the temporary cavity doing some , not all the damage because of the nature of ballistic science not being as calculated as we would like. I've seen it happen on deer, even though slugs have a higher velocity than handguns. I'll need to conduct a test some day to see if I can ever validate what I think (yea, easier said than done, maybe some roadkill could help) So until then temporary cavity is not a big factor with pistols.

Well, back to studying that was a good break

 

[gunrunner0]

In recent months I've had a much easier time finding .40s&W at reasonable prices. You can always find 9mm for $20 a box a Gander Mountain but finding cheap 9mm has been a task up until the last month or so.

I've had the same experiance around here I'm just now starting to see 9mm and it does'nt stay on the shelf long.

 

[youngda9]

because you have nothing to back up your opinion? by that measure, you can add to your list of worthless calibers: 10mm, .357 magnum, 9mm, .357 sig, .45 acp, .38 spl, .45 colt, because at one time, many police departments used those calibers, but they carry a different caliber now.
that's a lot of opinion there. Not much else.

Agreed...I thought that was rubbish as well.