380 versus 9mm (questions)

[Roadie]

Keep the Bersa, then buy it's big brother the 9mm UC Pro.
OR, wait for the Bersa Polymer framed 9mm coming out next year.

I LOVE my Bersa 9mm, and am a better shot with it than with the 380. Seems to me that the 9mm has less recoil, perhaps the weight of the gun...

 

[Dryden]

Put me in the column for keeping the Bersa.
It's a fine pistol that would be more expensive to replace in the future. Sooner or later, .380 ammo has got to return to "more reasonable" prices(please, please, please). If not, the Bersa will still hold its value and you will own a pistol that can be traded/sold for a reasonable price.

 

[CandRFan]

All excellent points and all well taken. I think it comes down to the fact that I need/want to have two different guns.

I like the Bersa and don't want to sell. I just need to be mare patient about the ammo and shoot it now and then.

I still plan to save up for a full or mid size 9mm. I thought I'd get more pressure/support/opinions to hurry it along in that direction, and I may have listened, but I'm glad to get the feed I did.

BTW, I bought the ammo they had at Gander by the way, so thanks for that tip as well...

I appreciate everyone's comments and suggestion as always...

Might I suggest that you need/want three different guns? Unless you're reloading, shooting a lot of 9mm can still get pricey. You need a nice .22 handgun. Sure, it won't have the recoil of your soon to be 9mm or your .380...but the basics of shooting are still there. Plus, out of all the "where's the ammo?" threads, how many of them were about a lack of .22 ammo?

 

[dyerwatcher]

Keep the Bersa - .380 can be found. Non of us will out-live the stopping power debate. I am of the oponion the .380 will stop the threat. Oh yeah - I love my 9mm's, .357 and .45 also. Just depends on what I feel like carrying at the time -

 

[cosermann]

Just to trying and make sure your questions are answered:

What about shooting a 9mm handgun compared to a 380? I know the handguns will vary in their shooting and recoil based on their style and manufacturer, but is there a general answer such as the 9mm is more similar to the 380 or more like the 40 cal?

The size and weight of the gun is a significant factor in the recoil equation (as are some design features). Your going from a subcompact to a full-size and changing calibers at the same time makes a direct comparison difficult. Obviously, all things being equal, the 9mm will kick more (on both ends), both objectively and subjectively. Subjectively, personally, I don't detect a significant difference between 9mm/.40S&W/.45acp in the full size guns although I do perceive differences in the recoil impulse. Some may be described as "snappier" or more of a "push." But nothing that would make me choose one over the other. You might find this handgun recoil table helpful:

Handgun Recoil - Condensed Table

For the loads listed, and handguns both weighing 1.5 lbs, the recoil of the 9mm is 2.4 times as much as the .380 and the recoil velocity is 54% more. Those are objective numbers. The subjective feel may be different based on other factors. You may also notice if you look at the table that the recoil for a 9mm is very similar to the chosen .38 spl load in a 1 lb gun fwiw. Additionally, given the parameters of the table, the 9mm is closer, in terms of recoil energy to the .380 than to the .40 (a 3.5 ft lb vs 4.6 ft lb difference), and just about midway in between in terms of recoil velocity. Again, for the chosen loads and gun weights. There is no such thing as a free lunch when it comes to this.

Does anyone expect that production for this (i.e. .380 acp) will ever be ramped up to catch up with demand or will the standard 9mm production always take precedence?[/quote

I don't anticipate.380 ammo production being ramped up significantly in the future to be anywhere near what 9 mm production is like. Both cartridges are over 100 years old. It would take a cataclysmic event to change the production of either relative to the other significantly.

In terms of stopping power, the 9mm will get the job done more often than the .380 (although the 380 may be enough for any given circumstance). I don't know of anyone credible who would debate this regardless of their perspective (i.e. whether Marshall/Sanow, Fackler, whoever, etc.).

 

[Glockster1990]

Just commenting here, I carry a Glock 26 9mm. i haven't carried a 380 although i have shot one. The 380 round is the exact same bullet as the 9mm just the 380 has a small cartridge to be able to shoot in a smaller gun. You could get a 380 hollow point and get +p bullets and that would be more than good enough. Bottom line is it will kill you and it will do the job. So when you pull that gun out they are going to run, nobody wants to get shot! Unless they are crazy . Also make sure that your barrel is rated for +p bullets, it will cause wear and tear if not and in general if you use them all the time.
Take care and stay safe

I love this country and i love this forum Special thanks to site supporters and the founder. Thank you
Brian

 

[Mickard]

In your opinion and experience, was the Taurus more expenisve than the Bersa? Which Taurus did you get to carry? I liked the small footprint you show, but was unsure of the model number (if I missed it)

 

[U.S. Patriot]

From what I have seen at the local shops, .380 is still really hard to get. I really depends on what you want. The .380 would make an exelent pocket gun. However, you loose on capacity. On the other hand, with the right holster, you can make a full size pistol disapear. If you want a full size, I would stay under a 4" barrel personaly.

 

[cosermann]

The 380 round is the exact same bullet as the 9mm . . .

Actually, common 380acp loads use 90 to 102 gr. bullets whereas 9 mm loads generally use 115 to 147 gr. bullets. Hence, not the same. The respective hollowpoints are also designed for different velocity envelopes.

Same caliber yes (within about 1/1000"), but that's about it.

 

[Glockster1990]

Actually, common 380acp loads use 90 to 102 gr. bullets whereas 9 mm loads generally use 115 to 147 gr. bullets. Hence, not the same. The respective hollowpoints are also designed for different velocity envelopes.

Same caliber yes (within about 1/1000"), but that's about it.

Yes you are right ...and that's what i meant the 380 and 9mm bullet wise are the same but different velocity.

 

[redneckpastor]

Must Read!!

I quote Gabe Suarez here in an article that i found extremely helpful in all that jazz about more knock down and this and that.

Gabe Suarez
One Source Tactical
Suarez International USA
Christian Warrior Ministries


Magazine Capacity

I suppose this will be yet another highly controversial issue, but
what the heck. Controversy makes for interesting discussion, no? The
issue is to look at whether high magazine capacity gives you a
tactical advantage, or if we are better served by carrying an equally
sized weapon with a smaller capacity of bigger bullets. Before I
answer my own question, let me put forth some facts as seen both in
force on force training and on the street.

Point One - Pistol bullets, regardless of caliber are all, what one
colleague calls, "iffy". None can be guaranteed to drop an adversary
in his tracks reliably. The notion of a one shot stop is an urban
myth dreamed up by those with a vested interest in such things. I
have seen 45s work and fail, and I have seen 9mm both work and fail.
For the record, the only one shot drop (excluding head shots) I have
ever seen with a pistol was fired by a good friend as we entered a
crack house during a SWAT raid. He shot the bad guy squarely in the
heart with 9mm +P+ out of a SIG P-226. He only fired once because the
bad guy fell before my friend could reset his trigger for the next
shot!

If we look at the most prevalent calibers we see that there is very
little difference between them. A 9mm (also .38/.357) is only one
little millimeter smaller than the 10mm (aka .40 S&W), and that is
only one little millimeter less than the vaunted 11mm (aka .45 ACP).
And before we get into the high speed light bullet versus the heavy
slow bullet argument, lets remember that you can only drive a pistol
bullet so fast without drastically affecting its integrity. Moreover,
since penetration is affected by weight, sacrificing weight for speed
will not yield good results. Finally, you can only make a bullet so
light or so heavy. There are limits to what you can shoot out of a
pistol.

I have seen every one of these calibers fail at one time or another.
There are those who disdain the 9mm as unsuitable for anything larger
than squirrels. With modern ammunition, this is simply not true.
There is also a myth and a cult grown up around the .45 ACP in this
country. Sadly, it is not the deadly hammer of god its proponents
suggest. This is not new. Read Fairbairn's Shoot To Live. He
writes of two separate times when the .45 failed to work any better
than anything else. Although one millimeter may give you a slight
edge in a less than optimum body hit, under most circumstances, there
will be very little difference between the effectiveness of the
various calibers when modern anti-personnel ammo is used. Trauma
injury doctors and reputable terminal ballistics experts tend to agree
with this statement.

Point Two - Private Citizen CCW Operators do not go looking for
trouble. If they are called to fight it is either because they have
inadvertently crossed paths with bad guys while they are doing bad
guy stuff (walking in on a robbery in progress as an example), or
because they have been specifically targeted and stalked (such as a
carjack, or home invasion event). They will have to use extreme
violence to fight off the surprise attackers. When we translate the
conversion of fright and startle into a firearm application we wee
that definition is high volume of fire. You will shoot a lot, and
until the threat is no longer there.

While these events share slightly different dynamics, the common
thread often seen is that of multiple adversaries. The lone criminal
or terrorist is an urban myth. If your fight only involves one,
consider yourself lucky. More often than not you will be outnumbered.

Another point is the time frames in which these events take place.
Think three seconds. After this, either you will be dead, or your
adversaries will be dead. Urban gunfights do not go for hours.
Unexpected, short duration, high intensity, extreme violence, multiple
adversaries. That is the back drop.

Point Three - Our staff has collectively been in a large number of
gunfights ranging from police, citizen, and military events. We draw
on those experiences to set up mock gunfights in dynamic, unscripted
force on force training drills. Although the surprise factor is
missing (you generally don t know you will be in a gunfight until it
is upon you), the dynamics of its evolution do not change much. Here
are some other observations from watching hundreds of those drills.

1). Defenders will fire their weapons until the threat disappears.
That means that until the role player falls down (simulating effective
hits delivered), or runs away (removing the target), the good guy will
keep firing. The concept of school solutions, controlled pairs, or
otherwise artificially limiting the number of shots (as one does in a
firing string on the range) does not hold up even in guys who've been
extensively trained to do it.

2). When a training gun stops firing (due to running out of pellets),
the shooter is still in the fight and still trying to shoot his enemy
as well as trying to not be hit by him. We see them continue to try
to work the trigger for one or two times before there is a realization
that there has been a stoppage (malfunction or empty gun). This is
followed by a visual examination of the gun, and only then is remedial
action taken.

This can take upwards f a second and a half before anything is even
attempted to fix the gun, and then the additional time needed to
reload. Thus the idea that one can read the gun s feel and
immediately realize a need to speed load simply does not hold up.
Running out of ammo is usually a fight ender if there has been a
failure to stop, or there are multiple adversaries at hand.

3). Participants in these reactive mock gunfights are debriefed
immediately to get a clear picture of what happened before any
rationalization takes place. Besides a shoot them to the ground
firing process, most shooters do not remember seeing the crystal clear
sight pictures they learned on the shooting range.

We see a great deal of point shooting, and gun index shooting. I have
yet to see anyone strike a classic shooting posture and press off a
carefully sighted pair in these room distance drills.

The point to remember is that in a fight such as what are likely for
the private citizen, one can easily develop Bullet Deficit Disorder ,
and that this can have deleterious effects on the outcome of that
fight.

The idea that a pair or trio of quality rounds carefully delivered
onto a high scoring target zone will stop the action fails both the
terminal ballistics test as well as the applications test.

A truth of gunfighting - Having more ammo immediately on board lessens
the likelihood of ever needing to reload. Not needing to reload
translates into more time delivering lead and less time manipulating
the weapon. More trigger time increases likelihood of hitting, which
increases survivability.

So the question is this. Given that there is a limit to the size
pistol one can carry, do I want that pistol to hold more rounds? My
answer is a strong YES!

Consider the similarly sized Glock 36 in .45 ACP, and the Glock 23 in
.40 S&W. The latter holds nearly twice the ammo of the former in an
almost identical package. The Glock 19 is an even more drastic
comparison with 15 shots available. Of course there are also high
capacity 45 pistols for those so inclined and for those who can wield
them. I would argue that if your choice is a 45, a gun holding 13
would be better than a gun holding 6. And if your hand is too small
for the 13 shooter, rather than decrease capacity, I d decrease
caliber.

I have a colleague is South America who has been in High Risk Police
Service for close to three decades. He has been in over three dozen
verified gunfight . His weapon was originally a Browning Hi-Power
and later a Glock 17.

I was very interested in hearing more so I asked him about the load he
used. He said he had always used military ball full metal jacket.
Astounded I asked him why he chose that. That is all we can get
here. Hollow points are illegal .

I shook my head and told him that there was a belief in the USA that
9mm was an anemic caliber, especially in the load he d chosen. He
shrugged and said that his adversaries must not have gotten the word.
He said he fired a burst at the chest and if they didn't fall fast
enough, he fired a burst at the face. He never needed to reload and
had enough on board so if he missed a shot or two he could catch up
in the fight. And before we hear the careful shooter versus the
spraying prayer, this man is one of the best shots I have seen and
competes on an international level. Even so, he knows the chaos in a
gunfight can play havoc with even the most gifted marksman. Perhaps
we need to take a lesson from him.

I still carry a Glock 17 with 17 rounds of Corbon DPX ammo in 9mm.

Gabe Suarez

One Source Tactical
Suarez International USA
Christian Warrior Ministries

 

[m2steven]

Redneckpastor: That is one of the best posts i've seen in a gun forum. Great advice and insight. +P 9mm ammunition packs a big wallop and the round count is going to be several more per magazine than a 40cal. I believe, after shooting thousands of rounds, that a 45 cal bullet will do more damage than a lot of 9mm. However, you have approx 2.5 times the ammunition in your standard 9mm handgun than in your 45. I've never been in a gunfight, but I've seen films wherein 2 or 3 persons are all firing in a confined space. In one such fight, at least 18 rounds were fired - not one hiting any of the 3 targets. You want to be the last person to run out of ammo.

 

[LCSOSgt11]

The 9mm has a 19 mm case, hence the designation 9x19 mm
The .380 has an 18 mm case, hence the designation 9x18 mm.

I personally consider the 9x19 mm the minimum power level for self defense. I'm sure other posts have mentioned the .40, .45, etc.

Opt for the larger caliber. The bigger the better, contrary to what Mr. Suarez may suggest.

I've been in a gunfight too, and at that time my Sig 229 was WAY too small in my hands, even in caliber .357 Sig. ( oh, and by the way, that caliber sucks too...)

By the by, thanks for the correction Pudly.

 

[pudly]

The 9mm has a 19 mm case, hence the designation 9x19 mm
The .380 has an 18 mm case, hence the designation 9x18 mm.

Sorry, the .380 is 9x17mm. Makarov is 9x18mm.

 

[88E30M50]

Keep the Bersa, then buy it's big brother the 9mm UC Pro.
OR, wait for the Bersa Polymer framed 9mm coming out next year.

I LOVE my Bersa 9mm, and am a better shot with it than with the 380. Seems to me that the 9mm has less recoil, perhaps the weight of the gun...

+1

I have two Bersa 380s and a Bersa Thunder 9UC Pro. As good as the Thunder 380 is, the 9UC Pro is even better. I've noticed the same thing about the recoil. The Bersa 9mm has less of a recoil than the 380. The 380 is more of a snappy recoil where as the 9 seems softer.

I solved the 380 ammo problem by starting to reload my own ammo for it. I can load 380 using 100g FMJ for about $8 a box and 95g LRN for about $4.50 a box. I've loaded 300 rounds this week and if the rain stops, I'll take the 380s out for a spin.

 

[pokersamurai]

Just my opinion, but I believe that the 9mm and 380 even in ball configuration will get the job done, although they would not be my first choice for self-defense they do have a street record in the multi-millions if you know what I mean.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Just my opinion, but I believe that the 9mm and 380 even in ball configuration will get the job done, although they would not be my first choice for self-defense they do have a street record in the multi-millions if you know what I mean.

I really do not reccomend ball ammo, especialy in a 9mm. With higher muzzle velocities, there is a good chance of overpenetration.

 

[Indecision]

I just bought 7 boxes of Buffalo Bore 90grn JHP +P ammo for Adrenaline's LCP at midway yesterday. It was pretty expensive, but she's got plent of good SD ammo now, now I just need to find large quantities of FMJ to practice with. someone said something about precision $300 for 1000rnds... could someone elaborate on this.

 

[Cygnus]

I really do not reccomend ball ammo, especialy in a 9mm. With higher muzzle velocities, there is a good chance of overpenetration.

How about out of a shorter barrel like a P3at or a LCP?

What about the flat nosed fmj wwb?