22 TCM Single stack range report

[NHT3]

Is the ability to defeat Kevlar worth the trade off of a smaller wound channel? Which is more likely to result in a faster incapacitation in the most likely scenario for self defense you would face?

I was just using the body armor example to give some idea of it's ability to penetrate ( possible multiple layers of clothes). I've also heard from several sources that some of the miscreants are now wearing body armor so in that instance it would be a plus. Personally the attribute I think makes it a good choice is lack of recoil and of course a 1911 trigger. Both tend aid in accuracy and that's the bottom line for me with any cartridge. Since the cartridge isn't really "mainstream" at this point I doubt that we have any real world results any time soon. I know you actually see and study this stuff so IMHO your take on it carries more weight on it than anyone else that I could ask. I would love for you to come by the range some time and take it for a test run to see what you think. I know shooting paper won't tell you a lot but it will give you a feel for some of the things I'm talking about.

 

[ChalupaCabras]

In reality cartridges like this usually have a terminal wounding effect similar to a conventional 9mm hollowpoint. They don't out perform conventional defensive ammo, but they still get the job done.

Reference the 5.7x28 and 4.6x30. I would expect the wounding effects of the .22TCM to be similar. The main difference I see is that the TCM is availible with a conventional soft point Vs. the others that normally use a fragmenting bullet; slightly different wounds could be expencted from the two types, but I doubt it matters that much in the real world.

The way I look at it, the primary benefits of these kinds of cartridges lay elsewhere - less recoil, lighter ammunition, flatter trajectory, high penetration.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I would love for you to come by the range some time and take it for a test run to see what you think. I know shooting paper won't tell you a lot but it will give you a feel for some of the things I'm talking about.

I've shot one of the double stack models. It's definitely low recoil. The mass of the slide moving seemed to cause more movement than the recoil of the cartridge. I don't know how significant the difference in split times between the TCM and a standard pressure 9mm would be, but you can run the TCM about as fast as the slide will cycle. Noise was...impressive. Muzzle flash didn't seem to bad, but it was well lit so night time may be a different matter. It would be a great carry gun for a rancher or farmer who's got varmint concerns. A flat shooting gun like that to take out coyotes seems like a better use of its abilities to me than as an EDC.

Anyway, like I said upthread I'm sure if everything is ideal it will do the job the same as most any caliber will. My concern would remain the speed at which it incapacitates an opponent in a less than ideal situation. You are correct that it'll probably be a long time before any significant level of data is available. With its boutique nature, I also wonder if ammo manufacturers will dedicate the research and engineering to building self defense rounds as optimally designed for the caliber as the common duty calibers have gotten. You can get into the problem of the .41 magnum. Its a good caliber, but it never caught on, and the circles it did catch on with where not using it for self defense. As such, the newer developments in hollow points didn't seem to make it to .41 magnum and if you choose to carry it you're stuck with workable, but less optimal, bullet construction.

I've also heard from several sources that some of the miscreants are now wearing body armor so in that instance it would be a plus.

We've found armor in some search warrants, and there are a few dealers wearing it, but I've yet to see a street robbery or business robbery where the suspect seemed to be armored with the exception of the guy who went after the armored car. Obviously unless you work for a bank or armored car company, those sorts of heists aren't likely to occur in your presence. Planning for the armored suspect would be planning for the rarest case, and I'd always recommend planning for the most likely.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

BBI - I totally defer to your experience. And indeed it does boil down to "how fast is fast enough"? For those who are recoil sensitive - my wife comes to mind - I find this an interesting alternative. If I was arming a large city PD , I would likely want to look at a bunch of different factors. And it does make sense to wait for live data to make that kind of a commitment.

Chalupa - I think your assessment is probably spot on.

 

[NHT3]

Update on the mag situation. Chad at USDS let me try a 38 Super mag and it functioned flawlessly with the TCM. I really appreciate the loan of the mag and the range to test it, Parabellum.
Also had another thought and maybe we can get BehindBlueIs to chime in again.. 22TCM is much the same as the FN 5.7, albeit about 300 fps faster. I would imagine that there are some real world results out there from the 5.7 and the data, I would think, would be very similar to what you might expect from the TCM.. I'm not sure where to find that data but I"ll bet the "guru" has a source? I guess we will find out.

NRA Life Member-- GSSF member
Ruger MK III, M&P & 1911mechanic
NRA Basic pistol instructor – Certified Glock armorer

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Update on the mag situation. Chad at USDS let me try a 38 Super mag and it functioned flawlessly with the TCM. I really appreciate the loan of the mag and the range to test it, Parabellum.
Also had another thought and maybe we can get BehindBlueIs to chime in again.. 22TCM is much the same as the FN 5.7, albeit about 300 fps faster. I would imagine that there are some real world results out there from the 5.7 and the data, I would think, would be very similar to what you might expect from the TCM.. I'm not sure where to find that data but I"ll bet the "guru" has a source? I guess we will find out.

NRA Life Member-- GSSF member
Ruger MK III, M&P & 1911mechanic
NRA Basic pistol instructor – Certified Glock armorer

Sorry to disappoint, but I don't. I am unaware of any shooting in our county that used the 5.7. I've only ran across one "in the wild" and it wasn't fired, just present.

I'm sure there's information out there, but when I present findings they are based solely on incidents I have investigated or that others in my office have. Just getting raw numbers means a lot of things get lost in translation. Ammunition used, distances, shot placement, etc. etc. There are so many factors I don't know how you could ever properly control for them if you didn't have all the information.

I really don't know how similar they'd be. Like I said above, I don't think its settled science at what velocity a stretch cavity causes significant damage. Bullet construction is always important, but becomes even more critical when dealing with high velocity/low mass impact. I just don't feel like I have enough information to hazard any sort of guess, let alone an informed opinion, on the differences or similarities of the two.

 

[NHT3]

Sorry to disappoint, but I don't. I am unaware of any shooting in our county that used the 5.7. I've only ran across one "in the wild" and it wasn't fired, just present.

I'm sure there's information out there, but when I present findings they are based solely on incidents I have investigated or that others in my office have. Just getting raw numbers means a lot of things get lost in translation. Ammunition used, distances, shot placement, etc. etc. There are so many factors I don't know how you could ever properly control for them if you didn't have all the information.

I really don't know how similar they'd be. Like I said above, I don't think its settled science at what velocity a stretch cavity causes significant damage. Bullet construction is always important, but becomes even more critical when dealing with high velocity/low mass impact. I just don't feel like I have enough information to hazard any sort of guess, let alone an informed opinion, on the differences or similarities of the two.

I was thinking that at this point some of the FT Hood info might be available? That idiot sure managed to do a lot of damage with one there.
[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]-- [/FONT][FONT=&amp]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]Ruger MK III, M&P & 1911mechanic
NRA Basic pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] –[/FONT] Certified Glock armorer

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I was thinking that at this point some of the FT Hood info might be available? That idiot sure managed to do a lot of damage with one there.
[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]-- [/FONT][FONT=&amp]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]Ruger MK III, M&P & 1911mechanic
NRA Basic pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] –[/FONT] Certified Glock armorer

It may be, but I've never dug for it. I try to keep my advise based on my own observations. Like everything else, this approach has pro's and con's. The pro is I can account for shot placement, see the x-rays, talk to surviving victims, etc. The con is, of course, limited sample size.