Barriers aren't just doors and windshields. For non-LEO, the most common is probably a forearm. Bad guy has a gun extended, good guy is focused on the gun, and his rounds strike the bad guy's arm before his torso, sometimes the gun itself is hit. I've seen at least two magazine floor plates shot off...
That said, windshield testing is also a very good way to predict how a bullet reacts to bone and for that reason I value the full FBI protocol even if shooting into/out of cars isn't likely.
12 inches of ballistic gel through 4 layers of heavy denim properly simulates going through forearms.
12 inches of ballistic gel through 4 layers of heavy denim properly simulates going through forearms. If you do research you can. Find .380 ammo that will penetrate past 12 inches consistently.
No, it doesn't. It does not simulate a bone strike of any kind and does not allow for an "air gap" for tumbling and for fragmentation to spread out.
There's plenty of .380 ammo that will consistently penetrate beyond 12". S&B FMJ will. Again, though, finding one that will both penetrate AND expand as well as be barrier blind...that's a different question.
Yes.
As an aside, and I have mentioned this incident elsewhere, a new attorney at my firm, when she was working for another firm in Louisville, got attacked in a parking garage. She fought the guy off and shot him with her .380, which ended the attack. However, she now carries a 9mm because she saw how the guy was able to get up and run away after being shot with the .380, including a hit in the neck.
It was kinda big news in Louisville at the time and she has since done commercials for the NRA.
And that is why I said you do your research and posted some helpful videos showing expansion rates and penetration depth through both bare gel and 4 layers of denim. Maybe you should watch them.No, it doesn't. It does not simulate a bone strike of any kind and does not allow for an "air gap" for tumbling and for fragmentation to spread out.
There's plenty of .380 ammo that will consistently penetrate beyond 12". S&B FMJ will. Again, though, finding one that will both penetrate AND expand as well as be barrier blind...that's a different question.
Crunk, you DO realize you are arguing with an experienced professional? BBI knows his stuff as this is his life as a LEO.
His professional experience is much more accurate than some rando youtuber and the info we glean from them. (Ammoquest does have good info in general on the .380, but regardless of that, its still not as effective as 9mm)
And that is why I said you do your research and posted some helpful videos showing expansion rates and penetration depth through both bare gel and 4 layers of denim. Maybe you should watch them.
Yes, I guess it was a .32, not a .380....either way. Her identity is apparently no secret:
.
Maybe you should watch them.
Maybe you should watch them.
Anecdotes, even from a cop, are still anecdotes.
You might look at the testing and think "Hey, that doesn't account for such and such" but all that does is give you a reason to try different testing methods to account for those issues..
I am normally pretty easy on the new guys, so I am going to give you some advice. After all, INGO is a great place to learn. Listen to BBI and Coach.
Now I will be a little more pointed. .380 pocket guns suck. This thread started about .22 and it is my fault it moved onto pocket guns. But they suck. .22, .25, .32, .380 suck.
I think it is a fair consensus...if you have something bigger available, carry it. However, the .22 rimfire can be a very nasty round, even when fired from a very short barrel. The injuries caused to 3 of the 4 men shot by John Hinckley are detailed in the article at the link. The 4th man, a police officer, was retired due to disability following the shooting and emergency surgery.
https://www.washingtonian.com/2011/03/10/the-saving-of-the-president/
Nasty injuries and disabling an attacker are different things. Note the President was lung shot. Even after being driven to the hospital he could walk. He could still talk. He felt bad...essentially degraded but not disabled until well after the shooting.
It was kinda big news in Louisville at the time and she has since done commercials for the NRA.
I am normally pretty easy on the new guys, so I am going to give you some advice. After all, INGO is a great place to learn. Listen to BBI and Coach.
I exaggerate...He never actually cried but he did well up....
Thanks.
Now, as a reminder:
.22 sucks.
.25 sucks.
.32 is the floor for a reliable suicide gun, but can result in flopping around for awhile, so watch your angles.
.380 is the floor for defense, but straddles that line where expanding ammo sometimes expands, sometimes doesn't, and I'd still recommend ball at this point.
.38, depending on barrel length and pressure (standard or +P) may expand or may not. For snubbies with standard pressure, wadcutters or semiwadcutters make a lot of sense. For longer barrels and +P you can get reasonable performance with expanding ammo.
9mm, .40, .45: Pick a heavy for caliber cartridge your gun likes, that's bonded or otherwise treated to avoid fragmentation and to retain weight, and call it a day.
.357 Sig/10mm: Lots of boutique rounds out there over driving the bullet to make impressive energy numbers for the side of the box. Over driven bullets make messy, but shallow injuries. Do your research on what speed envelope the bullet is designed for, and choose ammo loaded to give velocities in that range from your barrel.
.44 special: Not a large sample size, but I've not been impressed.
.44 magnum: Ouch. I ever tell you about the guy who lost a testicle and got a new butt hole from the same .44 bullet?
.357 magnum: Bullet selection matters, probably the most common over penetration round I've seen. Like through and through the chest, through a security door, through an exterior door, through an interior wall, and embedded in a door header type of over penetration. Please don't use hot hard cast in an urban environment.
I also completely get some people have physical limitations and need a smaller and gentler cartridge. It will *probably* work out for them. At least 30% of gun fights could be won with a starter pistol, the noise and flash alone put the bad guy to flight. It's the one who needs physically stopped, and that's much more common in targeted violence such as domestics, that a good bullet can really start to matter.