1911's...

[melensdad]

You have your opinion, many people with a great knowledge of metalurgy don't agree.

And many metalurgists agree with me. Or perhaps more accuratly I agree with the opinions of the engineers and metalurgists who disagree with those folks who think MIM is good for use in critical stress parts.

More importantly I used to be one of those people, like you, who that those MIM parts were good, until I had a critical part fail.

As I said, for a non-critical part like the front sight, go ahead and use MIM, or even plastic. But for a critical part then I'm no longer a kool-aid drinker like you. I had my bad experience, I'm just glad it was on a target range instead of in an actual gunfight.

 

[Principal Skinr]

For what it's worth, and I'm no expert, the Ruger SR1911 is not a series 80. I've got one and love everything about it. I also have a Remington R1 stainless, and it has been equally good. Both eat every kind of ammo their fed, including a variety of hollow points. I've witnessed even high end guns sometimes have trouble with some hp's. I've only shot several hundred rounds through each, but so far, so good.

The Remingtons are easily found nowadays, but the Rugers are still hard to find. They are each as good as Springfields, IMHO, and they are made in the USA, not Brazil (Springfield) or the Phillipeans ((Rock Island).

 

[Hoosier45]

MIM parts are a cost savings to manufacturers. And most consumers don't shoot their guns enough to get the MIM parts to fail, so there aren't enough complaints for the manufacturers to change their practices.

 

[drillsgt]

It depends on what you mean when you say you aren't going to be cheap, this could mean different things depending on your economic strata. 1911's usually fall into the <500.00, 500-1000, 1000.00-1800.00 and roughly 1800.00-2800.00 (for Wilsons, Nighthawks, and some Baers etc.) the skys the limit. The best value I think right now is in the 1k to 1.8K range with some Baers falling there as well as pretty much anything you want in the Dan Wesson line and don't discount used higher end guns. Quite often you can find nice Wilsons or Nighthawks for 1800.00 or so if you are patient.

 

[kawtech87]

Apparently the MIM debate was lost on Ruger's SR1911. If you read the write up on them it states that nearly every part is either a casting or MIM.

Ruger's inhouse casting company (Pine Tree Castings) has a rep for making some of the best castings and MIM parts on the market. They have been making MIM parts for years for other 1911 makers.

Seems alot of people still want the gun. So much so that Ruger has a backlog of orders.

So is MIM (quality made MIM) really that big of a deal today, with all the improvements in metalurgy and the process?

My list for best 1911

1-1.5k $ range,
Colt
Springfield
Kimber
Dan Wesson

3-5k $ range
Nighthawk
Wilson Combat.

EDT: Ill go ahead and extend my previous statements to include all Ruger semi-auto pistols.
Ruger has a rep for building extremely reliable (albeit ugly imho) pistols. All of which use a good deal of MIM but still go thousands of rnds without issue.

 

[JB357Mag]

Colt !

Jimmy

 

[gregkl]

The Remingtons are easily found nowadays, but the Rugers are still hard to find. They are each as good as Springfields, IMHO, and they are made in the USA, not Argentina (Springfield) or the Phillipeans ((Rock Island).

Darn and I thought the Springfield's were made in Brazil.. Supposedly Brazil has some of the most beautiful looking women!

 

[churchmouse]

MIM technology is being used to make connecting rods in both diesel and automotive engines. Failure rate is below standard cast rods. Just saying.

 

[rockhopper46038]

Apparently the MIM debate was lost on Ruger's SR1911. If you read the write up on them it states that nearly every part is either a casting or MIM.

Ruger's inhouse casting company (Pine Tree Castings) has a rep for making some of the best castings and MIM parts on the market. They have been making MIM parts for years for other 1911 makers.

Seems alot of people still want the gun. So much so that Ruger has a backlog of orders.

So is MIM (quality made MIM) really that big of a deal today, with all the improvements in metalurgy and the process?

MIM is easy to do poorly, and challenging to do well. When done well it results in a quite strong part; certainly suitable for use on a firearm part that is not subject to high impact or shearing forces. You get a nice surface finish on the "skin", aside from the mold parting line marks (which can be removed if the manufacturer wants to spend the time and money to do so), enveloping a less dense "matrix" of metal that makes up the rest of the part volume. It's best for small parts (for a lot of reasons). Having said that, a MIM part will NEVER be as "strong" as a forged part, unless the forging was done exceedingly badly. In some cases forging is not only more expensive, but completely unsuitable for the geometry of the part in question. Forgings cannot produce fine details without subsequent machining operations, which further add to the cost of a part unlike MIM which can reproduce those fine details right out of the mold. If you are going to have to machine the details in anyway, it's more cost effective to just machine the small part from bar stock (usually tool steel) and just be done with it. Machined small parts (done well) can be about as strong as a forged part, but done poorly can be weaker than a MIM part - so YMMV.

In general, in a 1911, I like forged frames and slides (castings are a little like MIM, but depending on the casting method may not get the strength and surface finish benefit from the "skinning over" that a MIM part gets), and machined small parts (except the slide stop, which if you stick with the original Colt design is simple enough geometry-wise to forge) done by a reputable maker.



EDIT: There is probably a professional metallurgist somewhere on this site that will take exception to my simplification of the processes described above. I've got good familiarity with each of them and have designed parts for forging, MIM, casting, die-casting, blow-molding, roto-molding, structural foam molding, machining and a number of other manufacturing processes, but each application must be assessed individually for a large variety of factors and it is easy for multiple experienced people to come to differing conclusions based on their evaluation of the relative importance of these and other factors. What I posted above is a very simplistic description of a very complex design process.

 

[LCSOSgt11]

In order if I was buying one on a budget:

Production Custom:
Springfield Armory
Kimber
Wilson Combat
Les Baer

Strictly Custom
D&L Sports (Dave Lauck-he built mine)
Cylinder and Slide
Burns Custom
Mark Morris

Stock Factory:
Colt
Remington
Ruger

You pay your money and take your choice. The fun is in the shopping.
Good Luck!

 

[Principal Skinr]

Darn and I thought the Springfield's were made in Brazil.. Supposedly Brazil has some of the most beautiful looking women!

Sorry...had my South American countries mixed up. Thanks for the correction! I'll edit and fix.

Is that something to do with the Brazilian Butt thing? Or was it the Argentine A....? I think I might be mixed up again. I need some Columbian coffee! :-)

 

[kawtech87]

MIM is easy to do poorly, and challenging to do well. When done well it results in a quite strong part; certainly suitable for use on a firearm part that is not subject to high impact or shearing forces. You get a nice surface finish on the "skin", aside from the mold parting line marks (which can be removed if the manufacturer wants to spend the time and money to do so), enveloping a less dense "matrix" of metal that makes up the rest of the part volume. It's best for small parts (for a lot of reasons). Having said that, a MIM part will NEVER be as "strong" as a forged part, unless the forging was done exceedingly badly. In some cases forging is not only more expensive, but completely unsuitable for the geometry of the part in question. Forgings cannot produce fine details without subsequent machining operations, which further add to the cost of a part unlike MIM which can reproduce those fine details right out of the mold. If you are going to have to machine the details in anyway, it's more cost effective to just machine the small part from bar stock (usually tool steel) and just be done with it. Machined small parts (done well) can be about as strong as a forged part, but done poorly can be weaker than a MIM part - so YMMV.

In general, in a 1911, I like forged frames and slides (castings are a little like MIM, but depending on the casting method may not get the strength and surface finish benefit from the "skinning over" that a MIM part gets), and machined small parts (except the slide stop, which if you stick with the original Colt design is simple enough geometry-wise to forge) done by a reputable maker.



EDIT: There is probably a professional metallurgist somewhere on this site that will take exception to my simplification of the processes described above. I've got good familiarity with each of them and have designed parts for forging, MIM, casting, die-casting, blow-molding, roto-molding, structural foam molding, machining and a number of other manufacturing processes, but each application must be assessed individually for a large variety of factors and it is easy for multiple experienced people to come to differing conclusions based on their evaluation of the relative importance of these and other factors. What I posted above is a very simplistic description of a very complex design process.

Oh Im not arguing that MIM is as good or better than forged or machined, but like you said if its done right on the right kind of parts, it can be a cost effective and reliable method.

Like I said Ruger is known for using MIM (high quality MIM that is) in almost everything they make.

No one ever seems to complain about MIM parts unless its in a 1911.

 

[churchmouse]

Oh Im not arguing that MIM is as good or better than forged or machined, but like you said if its done right on the right kind of parts, it can be a cost effective and reliable method.

Like I said Ruger is known for using MIM (high quality MIM that is) in almost everything they make.

No one ever seems to complain about MIM parts unless its in a 1911.

The dynamics of a 1911 are a bit different than some semi-auto's. Slide weight, geometry etc.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Oh Im not arguing that MIM is as good or better than forged or machined, but like you said if its done right on the right kind of parts, it can be a cost effective and reliable method.

Like I said Ruger is known for using MIM (high quality MIM that is) in almost everything they make.

No one ever seems to complain about MIM parts unless its in a 1911.

I am not going to disparage MIM as I am satisfied that it is acceptable and perhaps even better in some regards, DEPENDING ENTIRELY ON ITS QUALITY OF MANUFACTURE, but to answer the direct question, I would say that 1911s generate a different attachment from their owners than most other weapons, and it works out similar to the difference in the standards you will accept regarding your friend's daughter and those you consider acceptable from your own daughter.

 

[churchmouse]

I am not going to disparage MIM as I am satisfied that it is acceptable and perhaps even better in some regards, DEPENDING ENTIRELY ON ITS QUALITY OF MANUFACTURE, but to answer the direct question, I would say that 1911s generate a different attachment from their owners than most other weapons, and it works out similar to the difference in the standards you will accept regarding your friend's daughter and those you consider acceptable from your own daughter.

I hold a 1911 in the same regard I hold my favorite Motor cycle, Harley Davidson. Stock they are just "OK". there is a million things one can do to make them better, faster and individualized. In the end it is still a Harley.

 

[JetGirl]

BTW, what does MIM mean?

Metal injection molding.

As it was explained to me, it's like metal dust mixed with super bonding glue and molded into the part. I know that's probably way oversimplifying it, but still...

So is MIM (quality made MIM) really that big of a deal today, with all the improvements in metalurgy and the process?

Personal experience only... my Kimber (with MIM parts) has gone thousands of rounds without anything being replaced (even springs... I HAVE them, but haven't needed them. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!).
I'm happy enough with it. YMMV

 

[kawtech87]

The dynamics of a 1911 are a bit different than some semi-auto's. Slide weight, geometry etc.

True, but as long as the load bearing parts are made in the proper manner (not MIM) then I really dont see the problem with MIM parts.

As you likened the 1911 to a Harley, its no different than Harley using plastic parts in some of thier new bikes in none critical areas. It helps keep cost down (although IMHO Harleys are still over priced for what you get, but thats another topic entirely best saved for a new thread) and weight managable for the end user.

Sure you can swap out the parts you dont like for "better" parts, but if its not gonna hurt anything why mess with changing it?

 

[kawtech87]

As it was explained to me, it's like metal dust mixed with super bonding glue and molded into the part. I know that's probably way oversimplifying it, but still...



Personal experience only... my Kimber (with MIM parts) has gone thousands of rounds without anything being replaced (even springs... I HAVE them, but haven't needed them. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!).
I'm happy enough with it. YMMV

Mine too. No problems what so ever. After the factory warranty runs out I will have it customized to my taste but until then Its fine as is.

 

[kawtech87]

Back to the original topic.

1911s are just awesome! Get one, it doesnt matter the make or model, Every gun owner should have atleast one....or 12.

I have 2 as it stands now.

My Colt XSE.

My Kimber Compact

 

[iChokePeople]

No one ever seems to complain about MIM parts unless its in a 1911.

In a Glock, they'd be the best parts in the gun.