10 Year Old Student Refuses To Say Pledge

[mrjarrell]

From NWA News:

"When I heard from the principal, I was not happy," said Jay Phillips.

Jay and Laura Phillips were shocked to hear their 10-year-old talked back to a teacher at West Fork Middle school Thursday - but were less surprised when they found out why.

"Don't push him - four days of hassle, hassle, hassle and raise your voice," said Laura Phillips. "He's going to lose his temper."

Their son told them last weekend he had decided to no longer stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance at school because he didn't believe there is liberty and justice for all, especially when it comes to gay rights.

"To say them (words) and not mean them would be a lie," Jay said.

This week their son says a substitute teacher prodded him every day to stand up and say the pledge after he had refused. He then says he got angry, and talked back. The Phillips said that they reprimanded him for that, but they don't want him to be pushed to do something he doesn't feel comfortable doing.

"We would like to have the school make sure the teachers know the kids do have the right to sit down and make their own choices, even if he is only 10 and in 5th grade," Laura said.

She chooses not to say the Pledge of Allegiance, but Jay does. They said that they respect each other's choices - and their son's - and they don't see it as an insult to the country.

"He is not anti-American," Laura said. "He is very proud to live here, but he knows even at 10 he can make changes."

The West Fork School District responded by saying that they don't require students to say the pledge.

Now, it's too bad he got snippy with the teacher, but the sub did keep pushing and pushing, so I'd overlook that. It's refreshing to see a 10 year old who can take a principled stance and hold to it, even tho there will undoubtedly be lots of opposition to his stance. That takes courage and I have to say I admire the kids moxie.
Those opposed to his stance will no doubt pull out the nationalistic canard of him being "unpatriotic", despite the origins and intent of the pledge.
Principles are a tough thing to hold to in the face of opposition, this kids got a tough road to walk.

From CLS

The pledge itself is a rather interesting thing if you know its history. Consider how elected officials are supposed to pledge allegiance to the constitution, not to the flag and the government, as the Pleadge requires. Two cousins, Francis Bellamy and Edward Bellamy, along with a friend, Daniel Ford were advocates of a socialist state as envisioned by Edward in his book Looking Backward. They felt that the American school system should be like the Prussian system and wanted to use it to teach loyalty to the state. In particular they meant it as a way of making people loyal to the federal government.

Edward Bellamy lamented the Constitution of the US because it limited government functions. He admired the British system where the Constitution did was a plethora of legislaiton and traditions not a written document with enumerated powers. Bellamy wrote: "England's Constitution readily admits of constant though gradual modification. Our American Constitution does not readily admit of such change. England can thus move into Socialism almost imperceptibly. Our Constitution being largely individualistic must be changed to admit of Socialism, and each change necessitates a political crisis." Bellamy hoped that his Pledge would push the public more in favor of a centralized state. This is why it amuses me to watch the Right constantly defending the Pledge while the Left seems to hate it. Funny that.

 

[Joe Williams]

"He is not anti-American," Laura said. "He is very proud to live here, but he knows even at 10 he can make changes."

Yes, he is. But he's got the right to be, and the teacher should have respected the right for the little nugget to show his contempt.

 

[LEaSH]

I don't remember being 10 years old so well, but I know we were probably more afraid of waking up as a pile of soot from those dang Soviets more than anything. We were very much into all things USA in 1980's.

Kids today have tons of garbage thrown at them whether intentional or not. It's not easy, and a parent has to show them past the bull. Some parents have a way of getting their little snowflake to act on their own political beliefs. I have a strong suspicion that this is what's happening. Knowing that his parents wouldn't be harsh on him if he told his teacher off - that's more than a green light. That was a set-up.

 

[Scarnucci]

Yes, he is. But he's got the right to be, and the teacher should have respected the right for the little nugget to show his contempt.

Ehhh, I dunno if I would consider the kid anti-american. His folks probably had much more to do with this whole scenario than they are letting on.

 

[Big John]

She chooses not to say the Pledge of Allegiance, but Jay does. They said that they respect each other's choices - and their son's - and they don't see it as an insult to the country.

Their son told them last weekend he had decided to no longer stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance at school because he didn't believe there is liberty and justice for all, especially when it comes to gay rights.

O.K I believe it should be the kids right to not say the pledge, BUT!!!!!!

WTF does a 10 yr old know about gay rights and does anybody else think mommy is using the kid to take some political action?

 

[ATF Consumer]

She chooses not to say the Pledge of Allegiance, but Jay does. They said that they respect each other's choices - and their son's - and they don't see it as an insult to the country.

Their son told them last weekend he had decided to no longer stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance at school because he didn't believe there is liberty and justice for all, especially when it comes to gay rights.

O.K I believe it should be the kids right to not say the pledge, BUT!!!!!!

WTF does a 10 yr old know about gay rights and does anybody else think mommy is using the kid to take some political action?

BINGO...At 10, I didn't even know what gay was, as it was queer at that time and it wouldn't have been anything discussed in the home.

 

[huckfinnifkcuh]

Times have changed, and so have the perceptions of children. I know this child personally, and I can tell you that the decision to sit during the pledge of allegiance was his choice, and his alone. His mother actually called me when she was called by the principal and said "XXXXXX did something at school, and I have been called in." She had no idea he was planning to sit during the pledge.

He knows all about the issues that gay and lesbian persons go through every day. He has friends and relatives that are gay, and we live in a very gay-friendly area of Arkansas. He attends rallies and visits with people who are ill, and cannot get out. He is kind, and compassionate. He understands he is "just a kid," but also understands that he can, and will, make a difference. He is light years ahead of his peers. He is in the Gifted program, is extremely intellligent, and has already skipped a grade.

We can only hope and dream that there are more people like him out there... perhaps if there were, this world would be a much better place to live.

 

[techres]

I will take the same position I took in the thread about the kid who would not say the pledge in spanish which is I wish the world were filled with kids who thought enough to stop and think about the meaning of the flag, or pledge to have an opinion.

This kid has thought and made a decision. Even if his decision is no the one I would make, it is 100000x better than rote reciting on something you give no care for or thought to at all.

Personally, I would take his refusal the same way I would take a flag flying upside down. He is doing it as a sign of distress over the values he thinks need to be held dear. That is laudable and not the same as disrespecting the nation (just as a flag flying upside down is not a sign of disrespect to the flag or the nation).

 

[LEaSH]

I don't buy it.

When GBLT are legally able to be married (and they will and that's fine by me), will he start saying the pledge?
Or move on to another controversial reason as why the pledge represents tyranny and unfairness?

I believe he has the right to not say anything for anyone at anytime he wants. But finding truthfulness in his reasoning isn't there. Mom will speak up for her little angel, though. She's totally ok with the attention.

 

[esigler]

I am so amazed how we have changed, what is ok today. What about wrong what about right, what about truth?

 

[tedbower]

I am thinking there is more to this story.

 

[rambone]

Why Wedgies Happen

Come on guys, the kid has rights. Free speech is protected, and lack of speech as well. I don't think this is a place for Government or Public Educators to step in.


























I'm sure his classmates will sort it out.

 

[bigiron]

i have a ten year old here at home and a girl called him and a buddy gay the other day and he didn't know what she was talking about. obviously this kid is not a typical 10 year old. i guess this is what freedom is. but, i know if i didn't say the pledge when i was a kid i would have dads #12 stiill stuck in me no matter what the reason. it just seems odd to me a ten year old takes a stand on something so risque'. maybe mom and dad should give him a lesson on tax law and let him take a stance on that too!

 

[Jay]

I imagine there are lots of 10-yr olds that would really love to do whatever they thought was right.

Since they're that mature, why keep 'em in school? They most likely don't need any further supervision if they can choose to support homosexual lifestyles. I mean how much more can there be to being an adult?

 

[Armed & Christian]

In a couple classes, I have had students hesitate to stand for the pledge. I have no problem with barking out, "Everybody UP! Hand on your heart!" The (admittedly few) students who inform me that they prefer to not stand for the pledge get an earful from me that the ONLY reason they have the option of being such bullheaded, arrogant disrespectful snotheads is because of the sacrifice of generations of patriots who chose to fight and die to protect their right to freedom of expression--and they should stand for the pledge if for no other reason than to show gratitude and respect for those men.

 

[Blue Tile Spook]

I don't necessarily mind a child or adult not standing or not participating in the saying of the Pledge, I DO mind when a child or adult carries on a discussion or does something disruptive while it is being said.

An example that comes to mind is that I frequently used to take my son to the Muncie Dragway and the Anderson Speedway to watch the racing. Both events begin their festivities with asking the attendees to face the American flag and participate in the playing of the National Anthem. Some of those people that chose not to participate would be talking or say loudly, "Hey, I'm gonna make a beer run down to turn two. Anybody want one?" and then proceed down the steps.

A person doesn't have to participate in my beliefs, but please respect them.

If a person asked me to halt a conversation for a moment so that they could say a prayer, I may choose not to pray with them but I would stand quietly for a moment so that they could do so.

 

[versuchstier147]

I remember when I was in highschool - about half the students wouldn't stand. I asked a few of them why and the most common answers were: "I don't belive in it" and "I don't feel like it"

Maybe not half... More like a quarter. D***heads. I wanted to smack every one with a meter stick that made a "freedom of choice" remark. D***heads. Every one of them. D***heads.

Once more time. Yeah, it helps. D***HEADS!

Yeah, it's your right - as much as it is mine to call you a d***head, d***head.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I read something recently that caused me to give this some thought... if I recall, it was either Red Skelton's version of the Pledge or John Wayne's, but it also might have been the fact that an admitted Socialist wrote it, and when.

In no way do I intend to tell anyone else what to think. I offer this for your consideration; do with it what you will.

To quote:
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands.

While promising to follow the flag (gov't) is questionable, I have no issue or problem promising to support and follow the Republic... if we ever see it again.

Continuing:
One nation, under God, indivisible

We are presently one nation, yes, and I would hope to say we are still under God. That we are "indivisible", however, is a lie. Our states retain sovereignty and should be able to choose whether to stay in an association of so-called equals that are not equal at all, and indeed are often superseded by an overbearing, unwieldy fedgov or leave that association and either join another or remain sovereign unto themselves alone. I believe in the power of a state and the right of it's people to secede. I consider it the duty of a people being wronged and abused to leave their abuser behind them.

Lastly:
with liberty and justice for all.

These are ideals for which I think we should strive. We do not have liberty, though we have a superficially similar substitute. We do not have justice, but instead something that goes through the motions and allows the criminal to run roughshod over the peaceable.

For this boy, he may have heard mom and dad talking. He may have heard (in passing) a news report. I'll even grant that he may have come up with this idea on his own, however unlikely and unusual that would be. At 10, I would bet he knows what "gay" is and he may even have come to the conclusion that they are being wronged... I don't know. I do know that the reason he has for not saying the pledge does not mesh with my objection to it.

For my part, when the flag is raised, my hand is over my heart, my hat is off, and I am saying the text of it... save that one word: indivisible. I cannot and will not support that fallacious misstatement.

If someone wants to call me unpatriotic for this, I suggest he (or she) look in a mirror first. Dissent is far more patriotic and American than is blindly following a paradigm for it's own sake.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Blue Tile Spook]

Bill? Is that you?

Shakes BOR's arm and pinches him

I've not heard this tone from you before. Nothing wrong with it, just not heard it from you.

 

[homeless]

I personally have a slight problem with children saying the pledge in the first place. Kids aren't real people yet and can't make binding agreements. And any oath or pledge is a binding agreement.

As far as the kid being unamerican or not, I don't see it. Why should anyone pledge to follow a nation that does not follow its own constitution? His reasons may seem frivolous to me, but he has every right to hold them, to believe them, to follow them, and to curse this country because of them.

This is the reason why I love this country, because dissent is possible. We live in a country that will use its might to protect those wayward citizens that hate it. I can spit on the statue of liberty, burn the flag, and curse the constitution, and yet I will still enjoy the protections and liberties that those things give me. We are the nation of tolerance, not of grace. We don't forgive because we don't judge. Or at least this is what this nation is supposed to stand for.