-1 IMPD (OC Incident) 86th and Ditch Speedway

[Dirtebiker]

It's nice to find someone who can see the bigger picture posting on this forum. The OP's childish whining is the only part of the incident I found irritating. The cop had his opinion and stated it (albeit unsolicited.) Frankly, what the cop told him is correct. But, regardless of one's stance related to OC, the creation of the post to whine was the only thing I found disappointing.

Is it correct that if a criminal saw the op he would shoot him in the head and take his gun? Does that happen a lot?

 

[Dirtebiker]

If an ill-mannered buffoon in a uniform and badge thinks that gives him liberty to berate me in public with extensive profanity, his superiors will hear about it and I will talk to gentlemen like Kirk Franklin or other well-spoken, intelligent attorneys, about a law suit for verbal assault and abuse of power. ."

"Verbal assault", "abuse of power"? Kind of a stretch, don't you think?

 

[Bapak2ja]

Let's give the officer the benefit of the doubt then. That would mean the officer doesn't think the OP is smart enough to have thought through the choice, that would mean the officer thought he was smarter than the OP. And that the officer thinks he is important enough to present his opinion to the OP as a superior one.

Well, 88, I don't think I would give him that much slack. Dale Carnegie's basic course presents training on how to disagree without being disagreeable. The officer could benefit from such training. Yet, I recognized the officer had good intentions and he did not "pull rank" on the guy. Unsolicited advice from a man by whom one is intimidated, however, is not going to be well received.

Consider an alternative scenario. Officer walks up to the OP and offers to pay for his drink so they can have a quiet conversation. Makes it clear the conversation is strictly unofficial, and that the officer is willing go out of his way for a chance to talk with the OP. Officer can present his views. OP can reply in kind, knowing that there is no official threat. Could have been an interesting conversation—until he dropped the F-bomb and the OP just quietly walked away.

 

[KG1]

I honestly didn't realize that our society had become so sensitive to cursing. I know this officer and it is likely he heard from my mouth that no one wants to hear our opinion on open carry. That said, I cannot imagine my time being so invaluable that I would call and complain to someone's supervisor about them cursing, especially when they weren't cursing at me. To each their own I guess, I have better things to do with my time.

I find the part I highlighted in bold interesting. It that's the case and him knowing that what would compel him to single a person out and call them over just to give them his opinion?

 

[Dirtebiker]

If the biggest "-1 IMPD" issue is an officer giving a bonehead and unsolicited opinion on mode of carry then I would say we (IMPD) are doing pretty good.

I could agree with this! But sadly, it isn't.

 

[phylodog]

Let's give the officer the benefit of the doubt then. That would mean the officer doesn't think the OP is smart enough to have thought through the choice, that would mean the officer thought he was smarter than the OP. And that the officer thinks he is important enough to present his opinion to the OP as a superior one.

I don't intend this as an insult but this is a very clear example of the difference between how men and women's minds work differently. If forced to consider this situation for three day I wouldn't have come to this conclusion. My mother would have in 16 seconds though.

 

[88GT]

Well, 88, I don't think I would give him that much slack. Dale Carnegie's basic course presents training on how to disagree without being disagreeable. The officer could benefit from such training. Yet, I recognized the officer had good intentions and he did not "pull rank" on the guy. Unsolicited advice from a man by whom one is intimidated, however, is not going to be well received.

Consider an alternative scenario. Officer walks up to the OP and offers to pay for his drink so they can have quiet conversation. Makes it clear the conversation is strictly unofficial, and that the officer is willing go out of his way for a chance to talk with the OP. Officer can present his views. OP can reply in kind, knowing that there is no official threat. Could have been an interesting conversation—until he dropped the F-bomb and the OP just quietly walks away.

I understand presentation is a big part of it. It's the premise that there's anything acceptable about a complete stranger telling someone else how to live his life.

let's change it up and replace the LEO with someone in line at the gas station. How many here wouldn't be saying he was a douche for being nosy and telling OP what to do? But when it's a cop doing it, somehow it's okay? I don't get the double standard.

 

[Bapak2ja]

"Verbal assault", "abuse of power"? Kind of a stretch, don't you think?

Maybe. That is the reason I would seek counsel. By definition "assault" is a noun meaning "law : the crime of trying or threatening to hurt someone physically." <http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assault>. The "assault" can be both physical and verbal. Thus, the need for counsel.

Having reviewed the video recording, and the definitions, I agree, Dirtebiker. it is a an unnecessary stretch.

 

[88GT]

I don't intend this as an insult but this is a very clear example of the difference between how men and women's minds work differently. If forced to consider this situation for three day I wouldn't have come to this conclusion. My mother would have in 16 seconds though.

No insult taken.

 

[Bapak2ja]

I understand presentation is a big part of it. It's the premise that there's anything acceptable about a complete stranger telling someone else how to live his life.

let's change it up and replace the LEO with someone in line at the gas station. How many here wouldn't be saying he was a douche for being nosy and telling OP what to do? But when it's a cop doing it, somehow it's okay? I don't get the double standard.

You are right, 88, no one likes an opinionated ignoramus offering unsolicited advice. I have had this happen to me often—just never with a uniformed officer. But in a civilized society we acknowledge the the right of a person to express an opinion. I can be polite in declining to listen, or I can be polite, excuse myself and walk away. It does not hurt me to respect the other person, especially if I am not working on a deadline for an appointment.

Personally, I am not acting on a double-standard. To the best of my ability I try to extend the same courtesies to everyone I meet. My basic worldview presupposition holds that we are created in the image of God, so I try to see the image in everyone with whom I interact.

 

[actaeon277]

Is it correct that if a criminal saw the op he would shoot him in the head and take his gun? Does that happen a lot?

It happened to me three times last week.
Still paying off the bills.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

For those guys who are advising that I should have educated him on carry laws, that is a recipe for stupid.

Then call me ****in stupid because I've done it .

There are better resolutions that don't involve him escalating a simple stop late on a Friday night to handcuffs or a couple hours arguing with a guy who thinks he is the law.

Whether or not you would've ended up in cuffs , I would think would rely heavily on how diplomatically you approached the discussion .

Just in case you aren't aware , if you visit the FAQ section of the ISP website you'll find it addresses OC specifically and you can print it off to carry in your wallet if this situation comes up again .

 

[SteveM4A1]

There no policy against opinion and advice. Sure there are considerations of "representing the department" I will give you that. Police get asked for firearms advice all the time. Maybe we'll tell them to go to Don's guns since the media seems to. While the delivery was rough it was legit. Open carry is a bad idea while technically legal. Flame me if you wish but tactically its unsound and lately the "open carry" movement has done more harm than good for gun owners. It boils down to some people not liking being disagreed with and people wanting to scream its my right anytime they inflicted with butthurt. If people worked as hard for furthering gun rights and community involvement as they did screaming militarization and the police are coming to get me maybe things would change around here.

Why don't you explain your statements with facts/sources to prove your points?

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

Id have happily told that cop to **** off if he had offered me the same "advice". However who knows if he's the type that will go on a roid Tirade and lie and lock you up for something he makes up.

Did you actually listen to the whole recording ?

I don't know how old the officer is but seeing how the OP is 21 , I took it as the kind of advice a more experienced soldier would give to a younger one .

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

I understand presentation is a big part of it. It's the premise that there's anything acceptable about a complete stranger telling someone else how to live his life.

let's change it up and replace the LEO with someone in line at the gas station. How many here wouldn't be saying he was a douche for being nosy and telling OP what to do? But when it's a cop doing it, somehow it's okay? I don't get the double standard.

Let's change it up again and go with the premise that you've never stepped in a pile of **** before .

I , being a complete stranger to you see you about to step in a big pile and stop you , " Hey 88GT , don't step there cause it'll stink and possibly ruin your day " .

Would I still be a douche for telling you what to do or live your life ?

 

[KG1]

Let's change it up again and go with the premise that you've never stepped in a pile of **** before .

I , being a complete stranger to you see you about to step in a big pile and stop you , " Hey 88GT , don't step there cause it'll stink and possibly ruin your day " .

Would I still be a douche for telling you what to do or live your life ?

This analogy does not compute.

 

[CathyInBlue]

My tactic:

Just stand there with the Powerade in my right hand looking intently in the officer's eyes and listening to every word without the slightest reply, verbal or non-.

When he's said his peace, continue to stand there for a couple of beats before reaching in my back left pocket for a small notebook I keep there, placing the Powerade down on an adjacent shelf, and using my right hand to reach into my right front pocket for a pen I keep there.

Flipping open the notebook, I would scribble:

86th and Ditch Speedway
Time/Date
I would then return my gaze to the officer and speak my first words to him, "Name and badge number". After he gave them to me and I wrote them next in the notebook, I'd retract the pen, close the notebook, and replace them from whence they came before profferring my right hand to shake his.

After a single sharp shake, I'd say my only other words to him, "I'll thank you to keep your ****ing opinions to your ****ing self." Those censored words would mirror the words the officer himself used.

One more sharp shake and I'd release his hand to pick up my Powerade and cash out.

 

[Trigger Time]

Did you actually listen to the whole recording ?

I don't know how old the officer is but seeing how the OP is 21 , I took it as the kind of advice a more experienced soldier would give to a younger one .

I can't agree. He represents the law. It's not just a mentor like talk when it's coming from a cop in uniform or on duty.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Is it correct that if a criminal saw the op he would shoot him in the head and take his gun? Does that happen a lot?

I don't know of any fatalities, but I do know of 3 incidents on the north side where someone was targeted for their OC handgun, as well as a 4th that is arguable. In all 4 instances the person was approached by multiple suspects and had their firearm stolen.

#1: Victim walking down street. One male approaches from the front. Second male approaches from behind, sticks what victim believes to be a gun barrel (but admitted it could have just been a pipe) against his spine, takes his firearm, and flees.

#2: Victim is working on a car in his driveway. 3 males approach him, all armed, steal his gun and other items.

#3: Victim is working on exterior of house. 2 males approach him, both armed, and from opposite corners of the house. Steal his gun and other items.

#4 (the arguable one): Victim is at home and routinely OC's on his own property. Apparently someone noticed, grabbed a family member as they exited the house, then multiple suspects enter and demand the combination to the gun safe (so they also had good intel there was a safe in the house, that guy would probably have been targeted regardless of OC or not, but his firearms did make him a target as nothing else was taken.)

I've also had a "sloppy CC'er" robbed with his own gun. He met with a friend of a friend to sell a rifle. The friend of a friend quickly reached under the victim's open shirt and snatched his handgun, then used that to rob him of the long gun he was there to sell.

So, does it happen a lot? I don't know. You'd need more data, such as how many man hours of OC there are vs how many people are targeted to make that sort of determination. However it does happen. If it prevents more crime than it causes, again, I don't know, and I don't know how you'd measure that. You'd also have to consider what criminal you deter vs which you attract, which is more serious and likely to result in a deadly encounter, that sort of thing. Again, I don't have the data to make that call. What I do see is that when OC folks are robbed, its with a great disparity of force and appears to have some rudimentary tactics applied, which would lead me to believe they are more serious criminals.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

I can't agree. He represents the law. It's not just a mentor like talk when it's coming from a cop in uniform or on duty.

With your background , you telling me you've never experienced this kind of mentor like talk from someone who has "authority " over you ?