What Moves Do You Really Use in H2H?

[Wabatuckian]

Hello,

I'm certified to teach CQC. It's Aikido based but also includes strikes from various forms. I took Muy Tai before that.

I have a bunch of fancy stuff in my head, but I've never used more than the basic strikes, blocks and locks in fights. (I was security on the side while in college in Southern Indiana.)

I've known people who earned instructor levels in various forms, and their experiences seem to mirror mine, especially those who have, by occupation or otherwise, had to fight fairly regularly. One glaring example is trapping: Nobody who is proficient at trapping, that I've talked to, ever had time to use it while fighting.

What are your experiences? Do you use any of the advanced techniques, or do the basics pretty well serve you?

Josh <><

 

[paddling_man]

My experience is much more limited - three "belts" deep into Isshinryu from my teens. All that remains as muscle memory are a handful of strikes and blocks that felt right. These strikes and moves that remain are those intended to stop a fight quickly and move way from any threat - targets are knees, nuts and windpipe.

I've really been thinking hard about something... Traditional karate (and most martial arts) depend on katas and kumite for instruction. Katas are great for form and kumite for reaction speed. My only issue is that I feel it leaves one with a false sense of security - especially those who are less than physically powerful or those with a low tolerance for pain. Dojos train us in form and speed but leave one, in my humble opinion, ill prepared for the actual shock of getting a blow to the face. More so, the practitioner also sometimes seems shocked when that perfectly executed kick, from the 110lb executor, doesn't immediately end a confrontation.

If one is so motivated, I'm wondering if the best practice is full-contact sparring. I'm thinking to be truly prepared, a full awareness of what it's like to fight (or, should I say end a confrontation) under the pain of blows is critical to not delude oneself.

I've done a bit of looking at kali-silat and krav maga as potential candidates for the next step.

(Here comes the "fight club" comments. Honestly, there is something to be said for the realism.)

 

[Lars]

For every time I've used a Tae Kwon Do strike in self defense, I've used a Hap Ki Do joint lock or throw three or four times. The blocks, while my timing is now all borken, still remain in muscle memory and are second nature.

I got in a LOT of fights in high school. Which was fortunately a long time ago now.

 

[shooter521]

If one is so motivated, I'm wondering if the best practice is full-contact sparring.

Umm, yeah? I have very little in the way of empty-hand skills, save for the retention, counter-retention and H2H stuff that has been a part of my handgun training. But from the firearms side, the best practice without a doubt is force-on-force exercises. Why would empty-hand stuff be any different?

My

 

[esrice]

I got in a LOT of fights in high school.

Go on . . .

 

[_JD_]

I stick with pain&compliance, mainly joint locks&manipulation, some pressure points, a couple of elbow and knee strikes, and chokes.

 

[Glock Lover]

My experience is much more limited - three "belts" deep into Isshinryu from my teens. All that remains as muscle memory are a handful of strikes and blocks that felt right. These strikes and moves that remain are those intended to stop a fight quickly and move way from any threat - targets are knees, nuts and windpipe.

I've really been thinking hard about something... Traditional karate (and most martial arts) depend on katas and kumite for instruction. Katas are great for form and kumite for reaction speed. My only issue is that I feel it leaves one with a false sense of security - especially those who are less than physically powerful or those with a low tolerance for pain. Dojos train us in form and speed but leave one, in my humble opinion, ill prepared for the actual shock of getting a blow to the face. More so, the practitioner also sometimes seems shocked when that perfectly executed kick, from the 110lb executor, doesn't immediately end a confrontation.

If one is so motivated, I'm wondering if the best practice is full-contact sparring. I'm thinking to be truly prepared, a full awareness of what it's like to fight (or, should I say end a confrontation) under the pain of blows is critical to not delude oneself.

I've done a bit of looking at kali-silat and krav maga as potential candidates for the next step.

(Here comes the "fight club" comments. Honestly, there is something to be said for the realism.)

I believe you can have everything you want in a "traditional" Karate system. I have been studying/practicing Gosoku Ryu Karate for over 13 years. Its some awesome stuff check out Soke's website
SOKE HOME PAGE
you train your body to take punishment, you spar full contact (not first to score) with only a cup and mouth piece. You learn how to survive, and how to win, no matter what it takes. Yet at the same time you can benefit from the discipline and fine tuning that traditonal forms has to offer. Just my two cents for my discipline.

 

[rhino]

I only have three techniques at my disposal:

1. The Classic Co*k Punch.
2. Urinating, then fainting at the first sign of trouble.
3. Fleeing at best possible speed while waving my arms wildly over my head and screaming like a little girl.

Were I to be involved in a physical altercation in my adult life, I would predict that #2 followed by #3 would be deployed. Number one would be more likely used as a pre-emptive strike.

 

[Fenway]

I got in a LOT of fights in high school.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Army basic hand to hand got me out of a bunch of problems.

Drunken morons in bars situations. Tried usuing the ancient ninja art of I-buy-u-beer-tsu to calm them, but a combination of too much cheap beer, too much new metal, and too much ultimate fighting watching = drunken buzz cut retard wanting to fight you in Legends (or similar). While drunks are far easier, normal folks would be harder. Bar fights are glamourous in the movies, but they are usually a smashed bottle over someone's head and option 3 from Rhino's post.

Being a smaller guy and an ******* to boot, I found that literally dirty tricks rule. You can study so much martial arts and all that stuff, but literally a kick to the man sack or an eye gouging can drop them faster than a kick can. One can learn alot from watching an hour of the 3 Stooges.

In all seriousness, learning Aikido is fine, but there usually isnt enough time to grab something to throw them. Fights end up like the last rounds of a boxing match with the jerk literally hanging on you punching to the bony part of the head or guts. Fights are more of a hang on until they are broken up (from what I have seen). Biggest thing to "win" a fight: Learn stamina. Remember, its a hang on until broken up affair. Second, get the first hit in or avoid the fight. Unless you are willing to do something that will drop the guy immediantly, it will be a brawl fest. There are legal things with that. Thirdly, there is no such thing as a "one hit drop" on a guy, unless they are completely wasted or you hit something vital (like the nuts, see first rule, gotta hit first).

 

[nighthawk80]

I only have three techniques at my disposal:

1. The Classic Co*k Punch.
2. Urinating, then fainting at the first sign of trouble.
3. Fleeing at best possible speed while waving my arms wildly over my head and screaming like a little girl.

Were I to be involved in a physical altercation in my adult life, I would predict that #2 followed by #3 would be deployed. Number one would be more likely used as a pre-emptive strike.

Is there a class/course for this. I have always, thought that I should learn stuff from proffesionals. I think I have some of the basics down, but wuld love to make it to blackbelt level someday.

 

[rhino]

Well, I teach classes, but people don't come back after the first lesson. I have the student stand at ease, then when they are not expecting it, I deliver a solid Co*k Punch to their groinal area. Before they can recover, I urinate, faint, regain consciousness, then flee, screaming like a little girl. I have yet to have anyone return for lesson #2.

 

[bigcraig]

I have no formal training in any martial art, I have however survived hundreds of "encounters" as a bouncer at my family's bar, mostly h2h, but there were a few instances in which weapons were involved.

 

[Soundslikejosh]

Is there enough interest to warrant an "Ass whooping" thread where people can share their stories of how they beat up people with beer bottles and chairs and fire extinguishers? Or at least they knew a guy who did?

 

[PappyD]

I learned most of my moves from watching Patrick Swayze in the movie "Roadhouse"...


Seriously, I would like to learn some basic blocks and lock holds... just to protect myself and family...had a few fights in high school and a little later...just fists and some 'rasslin' until we got tired... no guns or knives or rocks or crazy stuff.

Great website by the way!

 

[Tinman]

I think we've kind of been down this road in another thread somewhere.

I would have to say my thoughts on the subject are very well known. Keep it simple, and allow the students the opportunity to freelance and apply the basics as appropriate.

Most people are not going to invest the time and effort to truely own the higher level techniques (moves as you call them) to the point necessary for proper implementation against a truely resistive adversary.

My personal feeling is a lot of time needs to be spent on the prefight issues, second by the ranged conflict (think 1 to 1 1/2 arms length), then the Clinch game (as many have said here, most fights I have seen one guy crashes the other resulting in the bear hug 'raslin session), and finally the ground game. A lot of time needs to be spent on not getting to the ground game, it's way too easy to get really badly messed up down there. The fight isn't over if you're grounded, but it sure gets really complicated.

That's my thoughts, I've got some other ideas, but they need to gel a bit more before I throw them out there.

Tinman....

 

[rhino]

I'm glad you said that about the ground game. With the growing popularity of "mixed martial arts" and Brazilian jiu jitsu, too many people think it's a good idea to get on the ground purposely. That may be true if you're a world class wrestler (the real kind) and don't have any other options, but in most situations it's a Really Bad Idea.

That does not mean you should not know how to do defend yourself when you're on the ground, but rather that you should not (in most cases) purposely go to the ground.

 

[Tinman]

Rhino,

That was kind of my thoughts exactly. With the presence of potentially multiple attackers, the environment on the ground posing it’s own issues (hard concrete, glass, metal objects whatever) let alone the issues of having an attacker in a top position, it’s just not a good place to be if you can avoid it.

I remember a few seasons back on the Ultimate Fighter Show the point was demonstrated in live techno-color glory. A fight broke out in the back yard of the house one of the participants intentionally tried to pull guard and lock on an arm bar. The other guy simply grabbed his wrist, elevated and dropped the arm bar guy on his head on the concrete porch. Of course there was an instant response of releasing the arm bar and grabbing the now bleeding head. Had the recipient of the arm bar not simply stood up and walked away, a serious amount of irreversible damage could have been done before anyone could stop it. Now these guys are trained fighters with a solid ground game, and very real world class wrestling skills, and that was the results.

I think way too little time is spent preventing the drunken clinch turning into a grounded wrestling session, and way too much effort is spent on classic ground game. You can be a BJJ expert, but if the bad guy’s partner is laying shoe leather on the back of your head, the fact that you choked out his buddy really has little relevance.

Tinman….

 

[Fenway]

Saw this short clip while cruising some videos the other day

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2yjXEe_X7E]YouTube - One Against Many[/ame]

 

[rhino]

I think way too little time is spent preventing the drunken clinch turning into a grounded wrestling session, and way too much effort is spent on classic ground game. You can be a BJJ expert, but if the bad guy’s partner is laying shoe leather on the back of your head, the fact that you choked out his buddy really has little relevance.

Amen.

I read some statistics on weapons used in violent crime in the UK. Shoe leather was #1 in the amount of damage done and the most serious injuries.

I've been thrown down on concrete and hard tile. It's not even close to the same as being thrown on carpet inside, much less a nicely padded wrestling or other mat, even if you know the rudiments of how to fall while minimizing risk of injury.

You can never assume someone else won't join into a fight on the ground (unless no one else is present). Once you're on the ground, your head is not much more than a watermelon asking to be shattered by the first scumbag that want to kick you and no "training" is necessary on is part.

Another thing is, once you're on the ground with someone, you've virtually eliminated your mobility. That's not a good thing.