D.C. Court Ruling Could Affect Out-Of-State Gun Buying

[mrjarrell]

Declan McCullagh takes a look at a case currently before the courts that could help rescind a portion of the Gun Control Act of 1968. It'd be nice to be able to buy a firearm in another state, while visiting. It'd be even nicer to get the feds out of it completely, but I guess we have to take what we can get.

From CBS

You can buy a car from an out-of-state dealer and pick it up there. You can buy a house in another part of the country, as speculators unwisely did during the real estate bubble, sight unseen. But even though the Second Amendment protects an individual right to own firearms -- and presumably to buy them -- you can't purchase a handgun while you're visiting another state.

A gun rights group has sued the Justice Department to overturn this prohibition, which became law as part of the Gun Control Act of 1968, and the case is now in front of U.S. District Judge James Robertson in Washington, D.C.

Narrowly speaking, the Second Amendment Foundation has filed the Hodgkins v. Holder suit on behalf of American citizens who live abroad and would like to buy firearms when they return for a visit (but can't because Form 4473 requires them to list what U.S. state they live in). More broadly, it could restore Americans' right to buy handguns while traveling across state lines as long as they undergo the normal federal background check.

Federal law says that, in general, it is unlawful for a dealer to sell a handgun to "any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in the state." Rules for buying a rifle or shotgun are a little less strict.

More at the source.

 

[Mike_M]

We need this not only for handguns but long arms as well. Currently, Indiana residents can only buy long arms in adjacent states. However, that doesn't apply to Illinois because they have their own draconian laws.

 

[6birds]

We need this not only for handguns but long arms as well. Currently, Indiana residents can only buy long arms in adjacent states. However, that doesn't apply to Illinois because they have their own draconian laws.

Not quite true, it is a state by state determination. There are several states where, as an Indiana resident, I can walk in , buy a long gun, walk out the door.

 

[shooter521]

There are several states where, as an Indiana resident, I can walk in , buy a long gun, walk out the door.

States that don't border Indiana? Which ones have you done this in?

 

[dburkhead]

States that don't border Indiana? Which ones have you done this in?

Federal law puts no such restriction in place. As long as neither Indiana nor the state in question have an "adjacent state" law (IIRC the Federal law does require that the sale be in accord with the laws of the States involved) then there's nothing illegal about purchasing a long gun through an FFL in any State.

 

[shooter521]

As long as neither Indiana nor the state in question have an "adjacent state" law (IIRC the Federal law does require that the sale be in accord with the laws of the States involved) then there's nothing illegal about purchasing a long gun through an FFL in any State.

But Indiana *does* have an adjacent state law, thus my question. I have always been under the impression that even if I'm in a state with no such restriction, that I can't buy a long gun over the counter because of what Indiana's law says. Correct?

IC 35-47-5-6
Purchasing or obtaining a rifle or shotgun
Sec. 6. (a) Any resident of Indiana:
(1) who is eighteen (18) years of age or older; and
(2) who is not prohibited by law from obtaining, possessing, or using a firearm;
may purchase or obtain a rifle or shotgun in Ohio, Kentucky, Michigan, or Illinois.
(b) Any resident of Ohio, Kentucky, Michigan, or Illinois:
(1) who is eighteen (18) years of age or older; and
(2) who is not prohibited by the laws of Indiana, his domicile, or the United States from obtaining, possessing, or using a firearm;
may purchase or obtain a rifle, shotgun, or ammunition for a rifle or a shotgun in Indiana.
(c) Any transaction under this section is subject to the provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (82 Stat. 1213, 18 U.S.C. 0.922(B)(3)).

 

[dburkhead]

But Indiana *does* have an adjacent state law, thus my question. I have always been under the impression that even if I'm in a state with no such restriction, that I can't buy a long gun over the counter because of what Indiana's law says. Correct?

IC 35-47-5-6
Purchasing or obtaining a rifle or shotgun
Sec. 6. (a) Any resident of Indiana:
(1) who is eighteen (18) years of age or older; and
(2) who is not prohibited by law from obtaining, possessing, or using a firearm;
may purchase or obtain a rifle or shotgun in Ohio, Kentucky, Michigan, or Illinois.
(b) Any resident of Ohio, Kentucky, Michigan, or Illinois:
(1) who is eighteen (18) years of age or older; and
(2) who is not prohibited by the laws of Indiana, his domicile, or the United States from obtaining, possessing, or using a firearm;
may purchase or obtain a rifle, shotgun, or ammunition for a rifle or a shotgun in Indiana.
(c) Any transaction under this section is subject to the provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (82 Stat. 1213, 18 U.S.C. 0.922(B)(3)).

Fair enough.

 

[mrjarrell]

As much as Indiana politicians may hate it, Indiana law has no weight outside of Indiana, no matter what IC says. If you're in a state that allows free purchasing of firearms and has no adjacent state law then you're free to purchase whatever you want (within the bounds of that states laws and the feds laws). I can't see where that IC has any weight, unless the state your in decides to give it weight.

 

[dburkhead]

As much as Indiana politicians may hate it, Indiana law has no weight outside of Indiana, no matter what IC says. If you're in a state that allows free purchasing of firearms and has no adjacent state law then you're free to purchase whatever you want (within the bounds of that states laws and the feds laws).

But the Federal law says that, to be legal, the sale must comply with the laws of Both States. Thus, a sale in, say, Texas, would be illegal because of the Federal law.

I'd have to go dig up the cite (unless somebody beats me to it), but I'm pretty confident that my memory on this is correct.

 

[Bill of Rights]

But Indiana *does* have an adjacent state law, thus my question. I have always been under the impression that even if I'm in a state with no such restriction, that I can't buy a long gun over the counter because of what Indiana's law says. Correct?

IC 35-47-5-6
Purchasing or obtaining a rifle or shotgun
Sec. 6. (a) Any resident of Indiana:
(1) who is eighteen (18) years of age or older; and
(2) who is not prohibited by law from obtaining, possessing, or using a firearm;
may purchase or obtain a rifle or shotgun in Ohio, Kentucky, Michigan, or Illinois.
(b) Any resident of Ohio, Kentucky, Michigan, or Illinois:
(1) who is eighteen (18) years of age or older; and
(2) who is not prohibited by the laws of Indiana, his domicile, or the United States from obtaining, possessing, or using a firearm;
may purchase or obtain a rifle, shotgun, or ammunition for a rifle or a shotgun in Indiana.
(c) Any transaction under this section is subject to the provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (82 Stat. 1213, 18 U.S.C. 0.922(B)(3)).

This specifically states that you or any non-prohibited adult resident CAN purchase in this five state region, not that we cannot in any of the other 45 states.

HOWEVER

I also recall BATFE stating that because of that law specifying those four states surrounding us, we are prohibited from purchasing elsewhere. I do not have a cite for this at present. If I locate it, I'll post it. If someone else locates it first, I have no problem with being "scooped".

Blessings,
Bill

 

[6birds]

But Indiana *does* have an adjacent state law, thus my question. I have always been under the impression that even if I'm in a state with no such restriction, that I can't buy a long gun over the counter because of what Indiana's law says. Correct?

Nope.

My brother from WI cannot buy a rifle in IN, per Indiana's adjacent state rule.

You can, however, buy a rifle in WI, because they have no adjacent state rule.

Several states do not have adjacent state rules, and hence, you can buy a long rifle, pay, and play, in that state.

As MRJARRELL pointed out, this IN law carries no weight in other states.

I have personal experience here:WI, OR, MT, NE, SD, TX, FL, WV. I cannot speak to the others.

 

[shooter521]

Nope.

Well, I'll be darned. Thanks for the clarification!

 

[dburkhead]

Nope.

My brother from WI cannot buy a rifle in IN, per Indiana's adjacent state rule.

You can, however, buy a rifle in WI, because they have no adjacent state rule.

Several states do not have adjacent state rules, and hence, you can buy a long rifle, pay, and play, in that state.

As MRJARRELL pointed out, this IN law carries no weight in other states.

I have personal experience here:WI, OR, MT, NE, SD, TX, FL, WV. I cannot speak to the others.

You may have done it, but you were in violation of Federal law in doing so:

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph

(A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale
in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence
to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and
(B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes; [Emphasis added]

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

 

[rvb]

You may have done it, but you were in violation of Federal law in doing so:



http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

David,
I initially looked at the same section of code you did, but that text is under the following section, implying only the FFL broke the rules?

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed
importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed
dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—

 

[SavageEagle]

David,
I initially looked at the same section of code you did, but that text is under the following section, implying only the FFL broke the rules?

That's a good question. Was it only the FFL in violation or also the person? They always say ignorance is no excuse when you break the law, so that statement would apply here, right?

 

[rvb]

They always say ignorance is no excuse when you break the law, so that statement would apply here, right?

As quoted above:

(and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence
to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States

-rvb

 

[SavageEagle]

As quoted above:


-rvb

But that doesn't really clarify if both the person and the FFL are in violation of the Federal Law. You'll have to excuse me, the oxycodone has my mind a bit cloudy and scattered today...

 

[dburkhead]

David,
I initially looked at the same section of code you did, but that text is under the following section, implying only the FFL broke the rules?

Could be.

Want to chance it?

 

[Bill of Rights]

You may have done it, but you were in violation of Federal law in doing so:



http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Wait a minute.. What part of both states' law did he violate to constitute a violation of federal law? Indiana's law specifies that you as an adult, non-prohibited citizen of Indiana can purchase a long gun in any of five states. It does not say that you cannot anywhere else. This would be analogous to a police officer being allowed to wear a badge... It does not say he cannot have "POLICE" as a window sticker on his personal vehicle. It would also compare to a blind person using his red-tipped white cane and a hook-handled walking cane as well. He can use both, but one of the two is specifically permitted; the other is not prohibited.

Or am I missing something here?

Blessings,
Bill

 

[indykid]

Wouldn't it be nice if we had one easy law to understand, something like the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed? Nothing about what state you can or cannot buy in, no barrel length, no parts count.

Unfortunately to get these rights back will take one of three things, either the slow piece by piece recovery, much like how we got here in the first place, or a dramatic shift in leadership that understands we are a nation of laws, with the constitution being the supreme law of the land, or finally the one I hope we don't need, is the forced return of this country to it's constitutional roots.