The 'won't back down' situation

[Goodcat]

I've tried searching, but haven't run into anything. I know there is no duty to retreat in IN, however there is a situation that comes to mind, that does play out in movies a lot, though if you run into the right crazy, it could be real life.

Enemy has assaulted you, whether verbally, getting in your face in a threatening way, whatever. Not battery, but assault. For the sake of the question, let's say that the threat was not immediate but imminent, standing 5+ feet away and you draw, not to fire but to diffuse. Please don't respond with 'you should only draw to shoot' responses either.

You draw your weapon and tell them not to move and give them a warning. They say, "chill out, I'm not going to hurt you. I'm unarmed, I'm not going anything" and continue slowly advancing toward you. They have their arms extended, no weapon in sight.

My initial response would be, SHOOT. My question is, would there be any legal repercussions? Would an LEO say that he even verbally backed down and did not pose a threat when I fired?. Could a defense attorney for him argue that I used the gun unlawfully because he had already backed down and was moving in to shake hands?

The ultimate question is:
If a man is held at gunpoint and continues to advance though warned, in a 'slow, non threatening manner', is this means to fire? It's either that or run imo. thoughts?

Let's hear answers for both on my property vs. in public (ally, mall, wherever)

 

[Bluedragon]

I am actually kinda curious to what the response would be for this as well. I have had a situation somewhat similar to this happen before. Also when you mention if the person you have a gun pointed too you started to slowly advance, with his arms out, that to me sounds like he is trying to get ready to try to take your gun away from you or something.

 

[Richard]

I doubt I would unholster but I would certainly uncover my weapon & place my hand upon it, issuing the following commands loudly & clearly: "KEEP YOUR HANDS WHERE I CAN SEE THEM" & "STAY BACK".

Those commands are non-negotiable IMHO.

 

[Joe Williams]

First, I don't draw to defuse a situation. If I draw my firearm, I have made the decision to shoot. If the situation changes before I finish pulling the trigger, all the better. And I don't care if the opponent is unarmed, or how slow they are moving. If I've drawn it's because I've determined they are a threat to me, and if they continue their advance they will get shot.

 

[Scutter01]

If a man is held at gunpoint and continues to advance though warned, in a 'slow, non threatening manner', is this means to fire? It's either that or run imo. thoughts?

If a person has a gun pointed at them and is being told to stay back, how can continuing to advance possibly be construed as "non-threatening"?

 

[USMC_0311]

Since you have all ready drawn, I think shooting him in the knee cap would be the thing to do in this situation. If he produces a weapon finish him, I mean you can't re-draw your weapon now to diffuse.

 

[Bubba]

If a person has a gun pointed at them and is being told to stay back, how can continuing to advance possibly be construed as "non-threatening"?

Bare hands can cause lethal damage too. If a person has given you reason to think that s/he is a threat and is close enough to make good on that threat, lethal force is justified.

 

[Wabatuckian]

This would be a nightmare in court.

Something very similar happened to me recently.

There was a fight about to happen, and I was walking by at the wrong time. One of the guys didn't want to fight, but wasn't backing down; he just sat down in the back of his van and refused to stand.

Regardless, the aggressor was obviously drunk, and seeing that someone was going to get the living **** kicked out of him, I kept walking, reached into my vest, and pulled out my cell phone.

I heard the aggressor's friend yell something like "watch out, that dude's trying something slick!" Sure 'nuff, the aggressor comes up to me.

I told him it was a cell phone, produced it, and further informed him that 911 was punched in and my finger was on "send." This, as I was backing away to get a view of the aggressor's friend (though he was clearly there as a non-combatant, I wanted all the players in my field of view).

That stopped him and they both walked hurriedly back to their truck, and sped off.

Point is though, that I was maintaining distance while the aggressor was trying to close distance. I could have probably legally dropped two drunk guys (disparity of force, even though one didn't seem to be an aggressor, he was still an accessory).

So yes, I could have legally, and would have, dropped the active aggressor in some manner if he hadn't run at the sight of the cell phone. I can't tell you whether that would have been by gun, knife or hand-to-hand, because it didn't happen. However, my back would have been to the wall eventually - out of room - and when cornered, I believe one should fight like a cornered animal.

Josh <><

 

[IndianaSlim]

I think when the guy keeps advancing, you definately have the right to shoot. I, however would never shoot him in the knee cap. It's my opinion to shoot to kill, center mass if you're going to shoot. If I draw the gun, shout my commads and he backs away, he's safe.

 

[indykid]

Since you have all ready drawn, I think shooting him in the knee cap would be the thing to do in this situation. If he produces a weapon finish him, I mean you can't re-draw your weapon now to diffuse.

If you can control your adrenaline rush during a confrontation, trying to shoot someone in the kneecap is a good way to sign your own death warrant.

 

[LCSOSgt11]

Goodcat:

A defense attorney would not say you were reckless, a PROSECUTING attorney might.

The factual situation you state would be difficult to render an opinion on, however, our law concedes the state of mind of the person administering the force necessary to prevent or stop a felonious assault. In this factual situation as you describe it, the subject states he is unarmed and will do nothing. He still advances. You MAY be justified in using deadly force, however, you will have to articulate your specific mindset just prior to engaging the subject.

Of course, these situations are scrutinized over a long period of time and by many individuals, namely the authorities.

Here is what you may have to look at:

1. A police investigation. You WILL be put under the microscope by them as you shot an apparent unarmed person.

2. Prosecutorial review. The local prosecutor will get together with the police when their initial investigation is complete, and they WILL submit it to the prosecutor's office. At that time, depending, (on the prosecutor's feelings about CCW issues, the facts of the case, etc.) there may be one of three things happen:
(a) Prosecutor rules that the situation is justified. You go free from criminal charges.
(b) Prosecutor/police file charges, such as Criminal Reckless, or a Manslaughter related charge if the assailant dies. Sucks to be you at that point.
(c) Prosecutor requests Grand Jury hearing. No judge, no rebuttal witnesses, ALL Prosecution. Again, sucks to be you, you will be charged with a probable major felony.

3. If you are criminally charged, hire the best defense attorney you can afford and pray that this person knows what they are doing.

4. If convicted, sucks to be you.

5. If exonerated, have several drinks. Then phase two may begin.

Phase Two:

Some possibly well meaning Plaintiff's Attorney (Attorney for the injured assailant or on behalf of the assailant's estate if he/she dies) will sue you civilly for substantial bucks for the continuing medical care of the assailant if he/she lives, or a Wrongful Death if he/she does not live.

Prepare for any eventuality. The above outline does NOT happen like the above all of the time, but is a good rule of thumb to go by.

 

[VN Vet]

This what I have seen on Defence TV, COMCAST Chanel 278 in Indy. If you don't get this channel, get it. It's the best 8 bucks you'll spend each month for Cable.

If you are in that situation, and you have done what you said, Pull your weapon and get into a defensive stance and step backwards and to your weak side and yell out Stop! Back off! Go away! Leave now! Keep backing up.

I hope there are others nearby to hear and see you retreating and warning the BG. You will have warned and are retreating. You are doing your part. There is nothing else you can do. If you turn and run, the BG can run after you. So, if you must fire, then do so decisevely. Any hesitation after you warned and are backing away can get you hurt or killed.

Defense TV did not say how many times you should warn an back away.

Me. I am an older man with two bad shoulders. Most anyone could bring me down and do me harm. So armed or not, if they act as a threat then they are a threat to me.

I hope this helps.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

I don't think I would draw unless I was going to kill him , I don't think an azz whippen is worth me doing time over . I think a man can look menacing and tell you he's going to kill you , but until he pulls a weapon , don't draw it .

I also don't believe in warning shots , again if you have to draw make damn sure you HAVE TO ! I think a warning shot is you just BEGGING for some jail time and a record .

Seems to me it's a "level of force " type situation , If he keeps coming at you , it could mean he's stoned or retarded . If he hasn't produced a weapon and you shoot him , I think you just screwed yourself .

 

[VN Vet]

I would listen to 2ADMNLOVER. I agree with the "level of force". You would really feel bad if the BG was not a BG but a Retarded Soul.

Unfortunally, people don't come with Name Plates tell us the type of person they are.

I hope none of us ever have to deal with this situation and make a decision to kill someone. Believe me, your life will never be the same. You may have to deal with the "What If" question the rest of your life if you were wrong.

May God Bless you and protect you forever.

 

[colt45er]

I am no expert but here are my thoughts.

I've tried searching, but haven't run into anything. I know there is no duty to retreat in IN, however there is a situation that comes to mind, that does play out in movies a lot, though if you run into the right crazy, it could be real life.

Enemy has assaulted you, whether verbally, getting in your face in a threatening way, whatever. Not battery, but assault. For the sake of the question, let's say that the threat was not immediate but imminent, standing 5+ feet away and you draw, not to fire but to diffuse. Please don't respond with 'you should only draw to shoot' responses either.
I am assuming that in this situation you cannot leave. While there is no Duty to retreat, that does not mean that it isn't sometimes the best option.

I know you said you do not wan tthe 'you should only draw to shoot' response, but really when it comes to to a court case that may be the best way to go. IIRC point a gun at someone (even if you do not fire) can be considered deadly force, at this point you are looking at leves of force vs methods of delivering force. So if you are in a position that warrants using deadly force you would probably be better off to shoot.

You draw your weapon and tell them not to move and give them a warning. They say, "chill out, I'm not going to hurt you. I'm unarmed, I'm not going anything" and continue slowly advancing toward you. They have their arms extended, no weapon in sight.

If they are still moving at you with their arms out, I would say they have not backed down and in fact they are escellating the situation.

My initial response would be, SHOOT. My question is, would there be any legal repercussions? Would an LEO say that he even verbally backed down and did not pose a threat when I fired?. Could a defense attorney for him argue that I used the gun unlawfully because he had already backed down and was moving in to shake hands?

The ultimate question is:
If a man is held at gunpoint and continues to advance though warned, in a 'slow, non threatening manner', is this means to fire? It's either that or run imo. thoughts?

The advance is not as cut and dry as non threatening vs threatening. I mean sure he is saying that he isn't going to hurt you, but he is still coming at you, then why the heck is he still moving?

Let's hear answers for both on my property vs. in public (ally, mall, wherever)

I don't think that it really matters where you are as long as you are legal (LTCH, not school, not barred for someplace etc). I would imagine if you were in a dark ally at night they would ask you why? But if you were at your house and this guy was in the your driveway they would be asking HIM why?


I would probably uncover my firearm but not draw, hand would be placed ready to draw if needed. But if I have to draw you better believe that shots are ringing out as soon as target is in my sights. They will be shots to stop the treat, not slow him down.

 

[Rookie]

Taken from another post three weeks ago:

Another neat tip from Masaad Ayoob was from his Judicious Use of Lethal Force video. It was during a talk about home invasions, but it applies here. If an altercation is imminent, and you draw your weapon to a low ready or whatever your training describes as a ready defensive position, and the BG continues to attack...You can make some assumptions.

1) He knows that I have a deadly weapon in my hand because he can see it.
2) He can reasonably assume that I know how to use it and that it is not an empty threat.
3) I don't know anything about this person. He may be a thug, a retired Navy Seal, SAS, KGB, Honor roll student, etc.
4) In that situation I know nothing about what training he has, but he knows something about the training I have.
5) No one would continue to attack if they thought they had a major chance of losing.
6) Because the bad guy is pushing the attack he must be confident enough in his skills that he can still win the altercation even with me holding a gun.
7) He has enough training to win the attack unarmed against an armed gunman
8) The only way to stop him is to kill him.

 

[indy77]

If I were a younger person I would wait for the situation to escalate. But being an older individule, I would not wait for this person to get within arms length because I could not defend myself. I would give verbal warnings and then shoot to disable or more likely terminate than to face a law suit and have the perp winning, me in jail and him with a nice settlement. I guess I am old school, when you are commiting a crime, you have no rights.

 

[bwframe]

I like this approach:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72pBCMzwhJI]YouTube - fight Pimp Owned By Karate Champ( Pimp Not The Very Hard Man[/ame]

 

[indy77]

Ya gotta love that

 

[mconley]

IMHO... if he is big enough, bad enough, and could take your weapon from you to use it aginst yourself or others. That is a IDTLH ( Imediate danger to life and health ), and I would hadle it properly, I assure you.